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Bob writes – “I recently bought issue 5 of Make Magazine, and inside are articles on the electrical powered car for $7000 and a some pages later on building your own windmill to power your home. Well, would it be possible to build a car that combines the two powers? You would use the electric power in the city, and on the highway you would use the windmill /fan inside a wind tunnel on top of your car. When the car gets up to a certain speed, you engage the the wind turbine to power the car, in effect setting it on cruise control. Would the 2 sources supply each other? The wind tunnel powering the motor, the motor making the car go so the fan can catch the wind?”

Of course the net gain wouldn’t be significant for this to work out, but it would be fun to do some math on the potential output of regenerative braking and regenerative turbines for slowing down…what do you Makers think? Post up in the comments.

Pictured here – John Wayland’s battery powered “Blue Meanie” 1972 Datsun.

Related:
Electric Avenue by Charles Platt. The street-legal electric car of the future is coming–not from Japan or Detroit–but from your neighbor’s garage. MAKE 05 – Page 60.

Wind Powered Generator by Abe and Josie Connally. With a motor and some piping, it’s suprisingly easy to build this inexpensive, efficient windmill generator–and enjoy free energy forever. MAKE 05 – Page 90.

How air cars will work – Link.

Phillip Torrone

Editor at large – Make magazine. Creative director – Adafruit Industries, contributing editor – Popular Science. Previously: Founded – Hack-a-Day, how-to editor – Engadget, Director of product development – Fallon Worldwide, Technology Director – Braincraft.


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Comments

  1. dissident75 says:

    You could possibly use it to aux charge ala regenerative braking, but the problem arises that you will always lose power in the system to drag, friction, system friction, etc… I’m sure the additional drag of having a turbine on top would not be close to evening out the power generated by said turbine. In essence it would be running at a loss.

    Think of it this way, if you connect the output shaft of a motor to the input shaft of a generator and wire the outputs of the generator to the inputs of the motor then introduce current to the motor to start the process, the motor will immediately die because the power generated is insufficient to power the motor at the power level it needs to generate the same amount of power from the generator, drivetrain friction will kill it.

    The only way you could harness additional power from the car would be to utilize something that is wasted like heat from the motor, or from braking. Thats the closest to free power you will get. Like turbocharging for example uses the byproduct of exhaust gases to pressurise the air going into the engine. Energy that would otherwise be wasted.

  2. mbcook says:

    Can’t be done.

    Assuming that there is no wind, here is the problem. Your car is driving X MPH down the highway and you turn this system on. Now your little turbine is generating Y watts of power. You must now use this Y watts of power to push you car enough so that it stays at X MPH. The problem is that turbine is going to cause drag. The faster you go, the more power you get, but the more drag you get. You would have to be able to use 1 MPH of wind speed to move your car at 1 MPH or faster. I don’t think that’s possible.

    Now if you are driving into the wind, you’ll get more power, but you’ll also get tons more drag.

    If you are driving away from the wind, you’ll have less drag but generate much less power.

    If the wide is a side-wind, you get all the fun of the drag, and none of the added power.

    If you were in a windy area and wanted to use wind to power your car, I think the best thing to do you be to set up a little windmill that you can raise. When you are driving, it is in the car (thus, no drag). When you are parked, you extend it (thus, the power). Just recharge your batteries this way. Throw in solar while you’re at it.

    I recently saw something about flexible solar cells that generate less power in peak sun, but generate tons more than normal cells when not in peak sun (rainy days, clouds, morning, etc).

    You’re fighting thermodynamics with your idea, and I you should never even break even (my understanding).

  3. danman_d says:

    this is, as mentioned above, simple high-school thermodynamics: the loss of energy from drag means you’ll never harness enough energy from the turbine to keep the car moving. otherwise, you’d have found free energy.

  4. lwatcdr says:

    Why not just hook up a wheel with a generator attached to the back of the car?
    No it will not work. I got asked the same question by a fellow student way back in high school. I really expected better from Make.
    If it could work you could drive forever.

    1. chris says:

      why couldn’t you hook up a wheel to a generator, I know you couldn’t rely on it completely but the speed of a wheel compared to the speed of a wind mill you should be able to put out some power.

  5. Overtone says:

    A company called SunWind Ltd. created a wind-electric hybrid vehicle we called the Windmobile. It was the cover story for Popular Science in November, 1976.

    When the windspeed was 9 mph or more across the highway, it would cruise under windpower at 4.3 times the windspeed.

    The electric drive was physically limited, as the vehicle was originally a “land yacht”. It could only go 42 mph with no wind at full throttle.

    But, it cruised on the freeways of Michigan, on windy days, at more than the then legal maximum speed of 55 mph.

    If you put the word Windmobile into google, you can bring up pictures on a memorial website. The land yacht was invented by James Amick, a Professor of Aeronautical Engineering at the University of Michigan.

    SunWind Ltd. designed the electric system and sent it to Jim and his sons to install. He knew it might be possible but did not have the electrical engineering knowledge needed. We supplied the propulsion kit.

    For our current work, see http://www.magneticpowerinc.com

  6. philliptorrone says:

    lwatcdr – of course, but not many people know that you can’t get any energy for free, so i posted this question *from a reader*. the responses are great and i suspect a lot of people learned how things work (and don’t).

  7. asailer@rwsc.com says:

    Oh please. Not a perpetual motion machine in the make blog.

    Repeat after me, “There ain’t no free lunch”.

    Loss of energy from the wind turbine drag would far, far outweigh any usefull electrical output from the generator. The overall effect of this idea if built would be to really reduce the driving range of the electric car.

    High school physics can come in handy.

  8. philliptorrone says:

    asailer – i posted this question from a make reader so make readers can talk with other readers on how things work. of course these isn’t perpetual motion machines…but i think it’s -good- for readers to ask these questions and friendly makers explain how and why it doesn’t work.

  9. aolshove says:

    Just play with a child’s pinwheel. As you pull it through the air by its stick, you feel the pinwheel stick press back against your hand as the whole assembly tilts back. That’s the drag of the surface area of the pinwheel’s spinning disc Pi*R^2 against the air it’s attempting to push out of its way. In other words, once the turbine fan starts spinning, any air it can’t process pushes against it and flows around it like a kitchen funnel pulled against a flowing creek.

  10. connors934 says:

    It can work, but you can’t have the windmill on the car while driving (see the “no free lunch”/”what a drag” comments above).

    You could generate the power you need for at least some of the trip by putting a windmill in the trunk while driving, then put it up into the wind when it is parked. Then, while the car is not using electricity, it is being charged up by the windmill. Solar could be used similarly, but the sun is a bit more fussy and expensive to capture.

    If you have a house with good wind access, you could have a windmill charging a bank of batteries all day and night, then you could charge the car off those batts when you get home.

    Another idea is to follow Noel Perrin’s lead in his book Solo. He had an electric car, which he tried to drive across the continent to get back to vermont. He couldn’t cross the rockies, but when he got back home, he had installed a bank of solar panels on his barn.

    The panels were grid tied, and the car was charged from the grid as well. So even though he was not using the exact electrons he had harnessed through the solar array, his car did use roughly the amount of solar electricity gotten from the photovoltaics on the barn.

  11. airship says:

    Yes, but if you used BOTH a windmill on top of the car AND a power-generating wheel BEHIND the car, you’d generate TWICE as much power as you use, right? :)

  12. lwatcdr says:

    philliptorrone – You have just depressed me deeply. The very idea that many people don’t know that know that putting a wind mill on top of a car will not work makes me weep.
    Even if this was supposed to be educational wouldn’t it have been better to start off with why this can’t work and not put this fellows letter up for mass ridicule? I would bet everybody on this board had come up with this very idea. The difference is they tended to do it at 10 or 12 years old. It is a GREAT way to explain entropy to a kid.
    Hook up a motor flywheel and generator and spin it up. See how long it takes to spin down.
    Take just the flywheel and spin it up and see how long it takes to spin down.
    Sounds like a good elementary school science project to me.

  13. philliptorrone says:

    lwatcdr – i don’t think it’s bad for someone to ask a question that might seem obvious to other folks, a lot of kids read this site too. many of the comments here are great and anyone reading it will know how things work a bit more.

  14. normanack says:

    Of course it can be done. Red Green did it on his TV show.

    Quando omni flunkus moritati!

  15. normanack says:

    Of course it can be done. Red Green did it on his TV show.

    Quando omni flunkus moritati.

  16. HamboneMalone says:

    There has been a bit of self-aggrandisement going here on at the cost of other people’s dignity. How entropy works in the real world is sublte, and a lot of smart people, of all ages, may not understand why this idea might not work.

    Personally, I like the fact that people are still dreaming up perpetual motion machines. The people behind these ideas are trying to come up with novel solutions to age old problems, and if that isn’t a major component of the DIY ethos, I don’t know what is.

    Take Bob for an example. He’s digested the information in the two articles, and found inspiration in what he’s read. He’s looking for the next logical step. He’s thinking creatively by looking for a way to associate two technologies together. But I think his most laudible action was to post his proposal here. He took the idea to his peers.

    When I read Bob’s letter I cringed. I knew that as soon as I scrolled down there would be post after post of mock incredulity, excoriation, and lament over the state of high school physics. Perpetal motion machines constantly appear in new forms because new batches of inventors are introducing themselves homebuilt technologies. Proposals like Bob’s deserve respect because they carry the spirit of homebrew science.

  17. HamboneMalone says:

    There has been a bit of self-aggrandisement going here on at the cost of other people’s dignity. How entropy works in the real world is sublte, and a lot of smart people, of all ages, may not understand why this idea might not work.

    Personally, I like the fact that people are still dreaming up perpetual motion machines. The people behind these ideas are trying to come up with novel solutions to age old problems, and if that isn’t a major component of the DIY ethos, I don’t know what is.

    Take Bob for an example. He’s digested the information in the two articles, and found inspiration in what he’s read. He’s looking for the next logical step. He’s thinking creatively by looking for a way to associate two technologies together. But I think his most laudible action was to post his proposal here. He took the idea to his peers.

    When I read Bob’s letter I cringed. I knew that as soon as I scrolled down there would be post after post of mock incredulity, excoriation, and lament over the state of high school physics. Perpetal motion machines constantly appear in new forms because new batches of inventors are introducing themselves homebuilt technologies. Proposals like Bob’s deserve respect because they carry the spirit of homebrew science.

  18. christurvey says:

    Perhaps the perpetual motion machine that is asked for it a bit much. But how about a motorcycle with a side car full of batteries that when parked all day has a wind powered generator on it. Even at night when parked it can have the wind generator in the up position and be charging the battery. Get a forklift motor to run the thing and you have a machine that is free to drive around. This would be a vehicle for getting around town.

    In the midwest we have wind everyday and about every night. So I don’t see not having wind being a problem. I would think that a distance of 40 miles would not be out of line to ask for on this type of set up. Plus if it were a windy day and you were parked outside you could soak up tons of free energy just being parked. For an added kick put a solar panel on it.

    If anyone wants to send me a URAL motorcycle with side car I will get a nice prototype out in a few months (maybe a year).

    –Chris

  19. jhalstead says:

    Peter Perkins put a wind generator on his electric van. Of course he only deploys it while parked and as a means to help top up the batteries.

    I’m sure it helps, but it won’t provide as much electricity as you might think.

    To put this in perspective, my first electric car typically drew 75amps @ 150vdc to maintain 35mph on a level road. One of these small wind generators has a theoretical maximum power of 600watts (in ~30mph winds), which comes out to around 40 amps @ 15 volts.

    To scale this up to the voltage needed to charge my EV, around 160vdc, we’d only be getting 3.75 amps and that’s assuming perfect efficiency.

    -Jerry

  20. HamboneMalone says:

    I like chisturvey’s post. A deployable wind turbine is a great idea. Plus it wouldn’t take much space aboard the vehicle once stowed. You know, that would make a great cross-country race. You only get one charge on your batteries prior to the race start, but once on the road you have to generate all the rest of the power you’ll need with equipnment you must carry with you to the finish. What a great test of technology that would be! If the race took place over the course of several days, a la Tour De France, you’d seriously put the reliability and practicality of your rig to the test. Any takers?

  21. starfyredragon says:

    Now, the perpetual motion machine idea is obviously not going work without circumventing the laws of the universe and the law of conservation of energy. (Granted, such a device might be possible with higher-dimensional physics, such as the source of the big-bang… but I doubt we’re going to figure out how to make our own big-bangs anytime soon, and doubt even less they’re going to end up in cars)

    That said…

    This idea has potential that I can see. You won’t make any gain from the highway wind you generate because as far as physics go, the drag your car would gain from a wind-generator will outweigh the energy produced by the wind-generator. HOWEVER, that’s JUST if you’re using the windmill to catch wind you’re causing by driving. As we all know, many cars have spoilers. A spoiler makes a car go faster for its energy despite adding drag. Why? The drag it adds breaks up turbulance that would slow down the car. If you could add the wind generator as a kind of spoiler, not only would it break down damaging currents, but also provide you the extra energy while preventing damage to the energy cost. It wouldn’t be enough to keep the car going indefinately, but it would definately extend battery life, as well as being able to just let it sit and build up energy while the car just sits there. In THIS method, you have all gain, and no loss.

  22. starfyredragon says:

    Now, the perpetual motion machine idea is obviously not going work without circumventing the laws of the universe and the law of conservation of energy. (Granted, such a device might be possible with higher-dimensional physics, such as the source of the big-bang… but I doubt we’re going to figure out how to make our own big-bangs anytime soon, and doubt even less they’re going to end up in cars)

    That said…

    This idea has potential that I can see. You won’t make any gain from the highway wind you generate because as far as physics go, the drag your car would gain from a wind-generator will outweigh the energy produced by the wind-generator. HOWEVER, that’s JUST if you’re using the windmill to catch wind you’re causing by driving. As we all know, many cars have spoilers. A spoiler makes a car go faster for its energy despite adding drag. Why? The drag it adds breaks up turbulance that would slow down the car. If you could add the wind generator as a kind of spoiler, not only would it break down damaging currents, but also provide you the extra energy while preventing damage to the energy cost. It wouldn’t be enough to keep the car going indefinately, but it would definately extend battery life, as well as being able to just let it sit and build up energy while the car just sits there. In THIS method, you have all gain, and no loss. (Though instead of one big “windmill” on the back, probably should think about a dozen tiny windmills all lined up, probably where the spoiler would be.)

  23. csteinman says:

    You are all missing the point. Very little imagination. Don’t think of a large pinwheel type turbine, think of one that hides inside the roof of the car! When decelerating, you open a cover in front of the turbine and allow wind to funnel into the turbine generator. You are now not only generating power to help extend the battery charge, but you are also helping to slow the car by creating increased drag! And the car is designed to be aerodynamic when the turbine is covered.
    It is the same type of method that regenerative braking works on. Regenerative braking does not create perpetual motion, it gives you more distance per charge. Maybe not a huge difference, but neither does regenerative braking.
    I think this is a great idea!

  24. Weezel says:

    What if your ‘windmill’ was mounted sideways to be more like a ‘tumbler’. Sort of like the paddles on an old paddle boat. It wouldn’t cause quite as much drag and if coupled with a gas/electric auto?? It might generate enough electricity to recharge or at least partially recharge the batteries extending gas mileage. At 70mph thats quite a stiff wind rolling tumberlers which could be mounted in several areas.

  25. shamus523 says:

    As I understadn it, one of the biggest problems facing electric cars is their effective range. The biggest problem with an electric-wind hybrid is the added drag from mounting a turbine on the car. What if a turbine was mounted under the front hood. Use it to recharge the batteries, not power the drive train. The grill could be structured to best direct the airflow and the only drag involved would be the added weight (and not too much at that.) This could be possible with a darrieus type generator. The car’s aerodynamics wouldn’t be changed and the only drawback would be a slightly decreased payload. It will never achieve oner unity, but it may be a step toward making an electric car slightly more practical.

  26. shamus523 says:

    As I understand it, one of the biggest problems facing electric cars is their effective range. The biggest problem with an electric-wind hybrid is the added drag from mounting a turbine on the car. What if a turbine was mounted under the front hood. Use it to recharge the batteries, not power the drive train. The grill could be structured to best direct the airflow and the only drag involved would be the added weight (and not too much at that.) This could be possible with a darrieus type generator. The car’s aerodynamics wouldn’t be changed and the only drawback would be a slightly decreased payload. It will never achieve over unity, but it may be a step toward making an electric car slightly more practical.

  27. jestme says:

    My late father also had the idea of a dual powered electric car. It would run on solar and a wind turbine, but his idea was based on the concept of an electric car with two battery banks, not one.

    He suggested that as the car ran on one bank of batteries, the other bank would be charged by solar and by a wind turbine. As long as the car was going forward, both the sun and wind would be charging the battery not in use. Once the battery running the car ran down, the driver would switch the drained battery with the charged up battery and hook up the drained battery to the solar cells and turbine.

    His idea was not a true solar or wind car, but a electric car that would not need to be recharged with house current.

    I realize the idea would face certian hurdles but someone did claim to have built a solar/wind powered golfcart.

    Here is the link
    http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/pvusers/2000-January/001075.html

  28. jestme says:

    My late father also had the idea of a dual powered electric car. It would run on solar and a wind turbine, but his idea was based on the concept of an electric car with two battery banks, not one.

    He suggested that as the car ran on one bank of batteries, the other bank would be charged by solar and by a wind turbine. As long as the car was going forward, both the sun and wind would be charging the battery not in use. Once the battery running the car ran down, the driver would switch the drained battery with the charged up battery and hook up the drained battery to the solar cells and turbine.

    His idea was not a true solar or wind car, but a electric car that would not need to be recharged with house current.

    I realize the idea would face certian hurdles but someone did claim to have built a solar/wind powered golfcart.

    Here is the link
    http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/pvusers/2000-January/001075.html

  29. jestme says:

    My late father also had the idea of a dual powered electric car. It would run on solar and a wind turbine, but his idea was based on the concept of an electric car with two battery banks, not one.

    He suggested that as the car ran on one bank of batteries, the other bank would be charged by solar and by a wind turbine. As long as the car was going forward, both the sun and wind would be charging the battery not in use. Once the battery running the car ran down, the driver would switch the drained battery with the charged up battery and hook up the drained battery to the solar cells and turbine.

    His idea was not a true solar or wind car, but a electric car that would not need to be recharged with house current.

    I realize the idea would face certian hurdles but someone did claim to have built a solar/wind powered golfcart.

    Here is the link
    http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/pvusers/2000-January/001075.html

    1. David Kilei says:

      I have designed a very similar electric car using the very same concept where the two natural sources of energy will be used to recharge an electric vehicles battery. This design is for one of my engineering units. The design will try and resolve the popular argument of drag by using a specially designed horizontal turbine mounted under the bonnet with a specifically designed wind tunnel that will direct the path of the wind to efficiently drive the turbine(s). Solar cells will cover the outer surface of the car. The question nowadays is no longer just about the physics of the concept but the mechanical and chemical effectiveness of the devices to use i.e. High Output alternators and battery design.
      Although the two free power sources may not produce sufficient electricity to continually power a 75kw vehicle like the Liberty E-Range cars it may significantly reduce the consumption hence cost of using grid power. The concept is designed for tropical countries where solar power is most abundant. Of course future cars will be using much less power and it may then be possible to have a vehicle that may have no need for external sources of power.
      As I am lust a University student I am at the moment trying to acquire funding or equipment to display my concept design. GO SUSTAINABILITY!

  30. jestme says:

    Sorry about the multiple posting, the system didn’t pick up my posting the first time.

    Again, sorry about that.

  31. Jaisonda says:

    Ok, I know practically nothing about physics other than what I observe so dont get mad if I say something scientifically stupid. Ok, so Its obvious that a turbine would generate way too much drag. But I think you people commenting on this fact and saying that its high school physics are thinking of the turbine as this giant thing on the car. Like Shamus 523 said, why cant they be mounted behind the grill, on the hood like a hood scoop, on the roof, as a spoiler, and on and angle or even completely sideways like what Weezel said? In fact, if they were completey sideways, wouldnt this propell the car? Otherwise, sure they would still cause drag but not nearly as much as one huge turbine, and because they would be smaller there could be more of them and they would spin at more rpm. If anyone has a reason why this wont work, please write, because this seems possible.

  32. Jaisonda says:

    Ok, I know practically nothing about physics other than what I observe so dont get mad if I say something scientifically stupid. Ok, so Its obvious that a turbine would generate way too much drag. But I think you people commenting on this fact and saying that its high school physics are thinking of the turbine as this giant thing on the car. Like Shamus 523 said, why cant they be mounted behind the grill, on the hood like a hood scoop, on the roof, as a spoiler, and on and angle or even completely sideways like what Weezel said? In fact, if they were completey sideways, wouldnt this propell the car? Otherwise, sure they would still cause drag but not nearly as much as one huge turbine, and because they would be smaller there could be more of them and they would spin at more rpm. If anyone has a reason why this wont work, please write, because this seems possible.

  33. internetster says:

    I think the idea is great harnessing expended wind energy. The poster has a great idea and it’s not one that violates Newton’s law. The drag aka Force is there on any object moving through a fluid and does increase proportionately to the speed of the moving object through the fluid( In this case a car through air). The question is rather can we design a fan system (e.g. a horizontal [NOT vertical] fan on the the hood where there is always going to be plenty of drag) that generates energy that is greater than the same aerodynamic design energy loss. The person who posted was looking at total net energy loss from aerodynamics not CREATION of energy and I know it can be done.

  34. internetster says:

    Can be done. Look at the net drag after strategically located fan systems that convert energy loss from drag that would always be in the aerodynamicacs of a car shape.

  35. RichiE31 says:

    How come nobody has mentioned Ram Air? If you’ve ever seen what appears to be a horn funnel at the base of some peoples front car bumpers, that’s a Ram Air intake(few people actually use these-I saw one on a mustang).

    With an external intake, that leads to the turbine, you wouldn’t have quite as much negative drag as you would have with an external turbine, and the faster you move, the more air you’ll take in, which means more pressure, which means more rpms coming from the turbine, which means etc……!!!!!!!

  36. kimaris says:

    Why not make the wind tunnel internal? Ferthermore why not have it in the front with the air shooting out the sides? Even ferthermore why not have it on all the time when you are driving? I know that the wind dosent have to be very fast to turn a terbine.

  37. Chic says:

    Curtis Burson asked me Bob’s question about 7 years ago while we were working together in Austin, TX. I commented to him then if it worked, it would revolutionize travel. Being a former physical science teacher, I told him I would research the idea to see if it were feasible. Having a Missourian’s kindred spirit, I like to be shown conclusively whether I am thinking in or out of the box. We even kidded about the possibility, if successful, of naming the new concept “the Burson Wind Tunnel with the Chic design”. Consequently, I have done intermitent research on the subject matter via the internet. Here are a few of my findings I think might interest those who have ventured out to explore this idea, not novel and surely thought of by many, but an idea I think worth exploring to the nth detail, if, for no other reason, than to give some high school science class an opportunity for learning.

    If this is a viable solution that does not violate the II Law of Thermodynamics (will go outside the box on this one later) here are some observations:
    All technology already exists to make it happen
    The technology data needed to make it happen is found in several industries that makes the data hard to obtain
    The idea must be scientifically tested
    The time required for making a prototype could be really short compared to most prototypes
    The cost for making a prototype is relatively inexpensive (ie. under $100k)
    The U.S. Government is not very open to this concept because of what happened to California, the EV1, and Chevron. (Very sad, see “Who killed the electric car” http://www.hollywoodvideo.com/Search/results.aspx?t=who+killed+the+electric+car)
    The Wind tunnel suggested must be internally installed as the september blogger suggested, but it is really not a wind tunnel. The correct terminology, as learned from an aerodynamics engineer, is Inversion Tunnel. The idea is to collect the wind and focus it’s full force on the propellar that drives the wind generator. (I designed an inversion tunnel for this very purpose to be tested in a college labratory for feasibility)
    Because of the current political environment, IF the concept works, it would be very difficult to get a patent on the idea. Our whole system of life is dependent right now at present on fossil fuels for system balance. If this concept is possible, these cars could be massed produced inside a year changing the world and its politics overnight. In my opinion, if workable, this is too important an event to give to anyone other than all of mankind. If not workable, this has been a great exercise in learning and should continue to be in hopes of igniting a fresh new thought. We do need to solve our energy and warming crisis.

    I am missing some pieces of data (out of my area of knowledge) that would satisfy the questions raised by the II Law of Thermodynamics. So, I am thinking outside the box. Maybe others will have the answers to my questions. If we cannot gain more energy than we expend (II Law and I agree with this), when we generate electricity, are we acually expending more energy than is released? To light up an entire city and to use electrical power tools etc., is the energy expended to make the energy used greater or less? If it is greater, the idea will not work, but if it is less, then electicity has properties that have been released that make it possible (and in my opinion, still do not violate the II Law). Another way of wording my question is, just how does the II Law apply to the idea of the Inversion tunnel. One of the bloggers alluded to the Law when he so elloquently expounded on drag and friction. He was right about the something for nothing concept and perpetual motion. But is this really perpetual motion? You use stored energy to move a vehicle a certain speed to kick in a generator that produces more KW than the car’s electric motor is using. (The Toyota RAV4 EV uses 17.1 KW at 60 mph and an ABB induction wind turbine with variable speeds can generate up to 55KW of electricity with wind speeds up to 60mph) Now, I know this appears to be workable and may very well be flawed. Like I said, I have a kindred spirit with the Missourian, so, please show me. To some of you I may be missing more than just links. Nevertheless, show me.

  38. bushman364@yahoo.com says:

    Chic,
    Are there “Inversion Tunnels” for sale currently or do you have to build your own?

  39. Chic says:

    Bushman, you would have to build your own tunnel. Solid sturdy ones are easily built out of aluminum, or you can build cheap test units out of sheet metal. Make the front opening fit the front of your car. Taper the box to where your “squirrel cage” (blades for the wind turbine) will be sticking up at the narrowest point and re taper box making a larger outlet to the rear (looks sort of like a laid down hour glass). Should be straight line but doesnt have to be. You can use electric dampers to control air speed if you need to. They make automatic electric switches that will switch from the battery pack to the turbine and vise versa. Hope this helped, and good luck if you are going to build a proto type.

  40. numba1assassin says:

    I believe and have design on paper a more practical design to this question. I haven’t tested or built it but the design is very much worth talking about and explaining. I theorize that it is possible to install a wind generator on a car to produce electricity, with miniscule or negligible drag on the vehicle. I am not sure if it is possible to patent this, or its application in the automotive industry but i am having a lawyer look into the possibility of patent, if any. I am reserving the rights to it.
    Lets examine the concept of the generator itself.
    It is some type of turbine, propeller, or fan prop with the intention of spinning some type of electrical generator to produce energy. In my design, If we were to modify the propeller design, we would be in essence making a horizontal axis propeller, with the generator connected to either the right or left of the prop. It’s difficult to explain in words, but kind of like the paddles on the back of a steamboat; or a bio-wheel on a small aquarium filter (without the borders on the sides). 3 prongs or blades on this prop should be more than sufficient, with the generator attached to one side of it, and recessed. The position and mounting of this horizontal axis wind generator is just as important. This entire wind generator should be mounted in the engine compartment, or trunk where the gas tank used to be. In the engine compartment, or wherever, the only piece that should be visible, and in contact to the wind from the bottom of the vehicle is about one inch of an entire single blade across. Its kind of difficult to explain, but here is an example. On many cars, like a late 80′s camaro, or the new monte carlo, there is a long black piece on the bottom front of the car. It’s like an undercarriage air dam. It sticks out 2 inches down and redirects air into the engine compartment, this itself has minimal drag on the car. Well anyways, one blade of the propeller will hang down 1 inch in the same fashion. The reason that this has barely any drag on the car is because the exposed blade spins, and isn’t a permanent fixture like the undercarriage air dam. As you drive, the wind that is under the vehicle will spin the propeller in and out of exposure. Very fast at that. Because it will be spinning pretty fast, it will need sturdy construction, and will need to be fastened to the engine compartment very well. Now I am assuming that the reason this is being discussed is because there is thought on either buying, or converting an electric car. In an electric car, there would be sufficient space in the engine compartment for such a generator. If you still believe there is drag on the vehicle, then perhaps you haven’t thoroughly understood my design.

    Well anyways, let me know what you think?

  41. numba1assassin says:

    I believe and have design on paper a more practical design to this question. I haven’t tested or built it but the design is very much worth talking about and explaining. I theorize that it is possible to install a wind generator on a car to produce electricity, with miniscule or negligible drag on the vehicle. I am not sure if it is possible to patent this, or its application in the automotive industry but i am having a lawyer look into the possibility of patent, if any. I am reserving the rights to it.
    Lets examine the concept of the generator itself.
    It is some type of turbine, propeller, or fan prop with the intention of spinning some type of electrical generator to produce energy. In my design, If we were to modify the propeller design, we would be in essence making a horizontal axis propeller, with the generator connected to either the right or left of the prop. It’s difficult to explain in words, but kind of like the paddles on the back of a steamboat; or a bio-wheel on a small aquarium filter (without the borders on the sides). 3 prongs or blades on this prop should be more than sufficient, with the generator attached to one side of it, and recessed. The position and mounting of this horizontal axis wind generator is just as important. This entire wind generator should be mounted in the engine compartment, or trunk where the gas tank used to be. In the engine compartment, or wherever, the only piece that should be visible, and in contact to the wind from the bottom of the vehicle is about one inch of an entire single blade across. Its kind of difficult to explain, but here is an example. On many cars, like a late 80′s camaro, or the new monte carlo, there is a long black piece on the bottom front of the car. It’s like an undercarriage air dam. It sticks out 2 inches down and redirects air into the engine compartment, this itself has minimal drag on the car. Well anyways, one blade of the propeller will hang down 1 inch in the same fashion. The reason that this has barely any drag on the car is because the exposed blade spins, and isn’t a permanent fixture like the undercarriage air dam. As you drive, the wind that is under the vehicle will spin the propeller in and out of exposure. Very fast at that. Because it will be spinning pretty fast, it will need sturdy construction, and will need to be fastened to the engine compartment very well. Now I am assuming that the reason this is being discussed is because there is thought on either buying, or converting an electric car. In an electric car, there would be sufficient space in the engine compartment for such a generator. If you still believe there is drag on the vehicle, then perhaps you haven’t thoroughly understood my design.

    Well anyways, let me know what you think?

  42. numba1assassin says:

    I believe and have design on paper a more practical design to this question. I haven’t tested or built it but the design is very much worth talking about and explaining. I theorize that it is possible to install a wind generator on a car to produce electricity, with miniscule or negligible drag on the vehicle. I am not sure if it is possible to patent this, or its application in the automotive industry but i am having a lawyer look into the possibility of patent, if any. I am reserving the rights to it.
    Lets examine the concept of the generator itself.
    It is some type of turbine, propeller, or fan prop with the intention of spinning some type of electrical generator to produce energy. In my design, If we were to modify the propeller design, we would be in essence making a horizontal axis propeller, with the generator connected to either the right or left of the prop. It’s difficult to explain in words, but kind of like the paddles on the back of a steamboat; or a bio-wheel on a small aquarium filter (without the borders on the sides). 3 prongs or blades on this prop should be more than sufficient, with the generator attached to one side of it, and recessed. The position and mounting of this horizontal axis wind generator is just as important. This entire wind generator should be mounted in the engine compartment, or trunk where the gas tank used to be. In the engine compartment, or wherever, the only piece that should be visible, and in contact to the wind from the bottom of the vehicle is about one inch of an entire single blade across. Its kind of difficult to explain, but here is an example. On many cars, like a late 80′s camaro, or the new monte carlo, there is a long black piece on the bottom front of the car. It’s like an undercarriage air dam. It sticks out 2 inches down and redirects air into the engine compartment, this itself has minimal drag on the car. Well anyways, one blade of the propeller will hang down 1 inch in the same fashion. The reason that this has barely any drag on the car is because the exposed blade spins, and isn’t a permanent fixture like the undercarriage air dam. As you drive, the wind that is under the vehicle will spin the propeller in and out of exposure. Very fast at that. Because it will be spinning pretty fast, it will need sturdy construction, and will need to be fastened to the engine compartment very well. Now I am assuming that the reason this is being discussed is because there is thought on either buying, or converting an electric car. In an electric car, there would be sufficient space in the engine compartment for such a generator. If you still believe there is drag on the vehicle, then perhaps you haven’t thoroughly understood my design.

    Well anyways, let me know what you think?

  43. numba1assassin says:

    Wow, sorry, computer kind of froze and somehow posted that comment 3 times. Sorry.

  44. amardatar says:

    Just pointing out, everyone is suggesting turbines will be limited to directly correlate to speed. what if you sent electricity gained from the turbine straight into the battery, and use the battery to power the car? above a certain speed, the turbine is certain to produce more electricity than the car needs to drive, so it’s really what is that speed? I would also point out that few people would want a car with a turbine sticking out of the top of the car, or a wind tunnel just to power a car.

  45. drag_reduction says:

    Any car without a wind turbine already has a drag coefficient. Would it be possible to add a turbine to the existing profile of a car, such that the drag coefficient did not increase (i.e. where the radiator is on most cars)? I’m not suggesting a perpetual motion machine or energy for free, but simply a way to recoup some of the wasted energy of pushing a car through air. Wouldn’t it be possible to effectively reduce (not eliminate) the drag coefficient by adding a turbine? Or by adding a turbine, do you always also have to increase drag?

  46. bebopin2@yahoo.com says:

    here is a thought one could create a fan type car (they have been built in the past one I think was actulaly part boat ski sled and car (cause all the power was comming from the prop like a swamp boat) if one were sitting or using regen breaking one could in theory save energy to a battery etc… now if one could find a parking lot etc with the requirements of space and wind to alow a close to the ground vehicle to gen enough electricity to be worth while while you were at work… I don’t know maby if ya live in the gorge up in washington parts of wyoming, montana… plus one of the reason we arnt riding around on prop driven cars is 1 they are hard to control compared to power coming from wheels, 2 LOUD, 3 Fail in crashes spectacularly. Now could one use solar to work with an air compressor (in place of batery) for an air powered piston (turbine?) motor?

  47. bnjerc says:

    Hey guys,

    I found this blog because I’ve been thinking about this idea for a while. I’m not a perpetual-motion-freak, but recylcing spent energy (like those braking systems), or catching side-effect energy (like the created airflow [drag] by objects that are in motion) is something that seems worthy of persuit.

    Now, as far as automoble design goes, necessary drag is already used to boost the performance of cars (spoilers, hood-vents, super/turbo chargers,) things to keep the car down on the road (as opposed to up in the air), and help keep the engine cool and to “charge” it for when increased horsepower is needed. Bottom line, there’s no getting rid of drag, but drag isn’t all that bad either. (Taking advantage of it is part of what helps aircraft land, and autos stay on the road.)

    The bigger issue is how much power can a wind-turbine moving at a certian speed generate, and how much power a car needs to go a certian speed for a certain distance.

    Wind turbines are generally designed with average windspeeds in mind, and that has generally made them favor lesser and more constant breeze-like windspeeds rather than the storm like airflow created at moving forward at 65 to 70 mph. (Racing cars travel at speeds equal to weaker huricanes.) And thus, off the shelf wind-tubines are actually designed to power-down by locking in place or by flapping to a degree that the wind just goes right thru; and they do this at around 50 mphs. So, engineering a turbine design that would take advantage of high-wind velocity (which is always coming from the same direction, in this case, forward) would be necessary.

    Therotically at least, the huge plus about doing this is that as wind increases, the power-output of the turbine increases at an exponetial rate. The reasons traditional wind-turbines don’t take advantage of this (at storm-like speeds), however, is for the turbines protection (usually seated on a high-tower, and designed to rotate 360 degrees, a big enough natural wind gust could litterally push them right off their towers if they were made without those safety features–but, properally mounted within the frame of a car fixed in one direction, the rotor designed properly, and the generator geared for higher-velocities there’s no reason to expect the rotor-to-turbine componet of it would be in serious danger since prop-planes can go several hundreds of miles an hour, and helicopters turn their rotors with an incredible ammount of RPM.) Still, this may be the short-fall of the whole idea, because planes are pushing, or pulling themselves forward, and helicopters are generting lift by the similar rotation, while a wind-tubrine is only catching, and slowing wind down… creating a serious counter-force pushing back while the theorized car pushes forward.

    The question becomes, is the counter-force less than, equal to, or greater than. If it’s greater than, there’s nothing to pursue. If it’s equal to, it’s something, but nothing worth pursuing, and if it’s less than, than it needs to be much less to make it more desirable to pursue than the alternatives already within reach. Now, because the ammount of power generated by a wind-turbine is exopnetially greater as windspeed increases, it’s possible, this counter-force (the drag) could be less than the energy it produces for the car relative to the ammount of energy the car expends–especially if the wind is caught first by something else, channeled to the wind-turbine (or turbines, as I think a few micro-turbines, at least 3 to 5 of them would be needed, likely with 8 blades rather than the traditional 3-blades per rotor of each, because none of them could be very long to fit a traditional car design) rather than just one larger one), and then exhausted in a way that benefits the cars handling. … Sort of of the “Z” shape maybe, with the turbine mounted facing up, the wind taken in from the hood, channeled downward, and redirecting again once it’s past the turbine, towards the aft of the car. (The push-back effect of this channeled air would then potentially even be in the cars favor creating both thrust and downward force.)

    Such a system would likely generate 1 to 5 KW’s per hour (depending on how well it was designed, even with the law that you can only make pratical use of 30 percent of the wind you catch factored in), and a EV crusing at 55mph, I think only consumes a few hundred per hour… (560w to 700w.) With all the other features put in a modern car (ac, media-devices, interior lights, exterior lights, and the burst of power needed to get to speed) It would hardly be perpetual motion, and you would likely still need to charge the car while parked, but if it’s designed right, a EV car with a wind-turbine-power system could triple or quadruple it’s range where it was allowed to cruise for long periods at freeway speeds.

    The hurdles are: 1)You’ve really got to have a wind-turbine system built from scratch, and engineneered just for this purpose; because though wind-turbines are and explored area nothing on the shelf is adaquate because they’ve been evolving to make the most of gentle breezes, 2) Several expensive batteries are still a required to house the stored energy. and 3) All of these things together take a lot of “under the hood” space, and would make it neccesary to put int smaller independent electric motors for each of the wheels… (which isn’t a bad thing, and can actually be a great thing, but, it’s probably also expensive.)

    The pluses are that it 1) can charge itself even at night-time, (unlike solar electric cars.) 2) Can charge itself on the go (unlike traditional electric vehicles, or the ones that will use hydrogen fuel-cells.) 3) can take advantage of these abilities to reduce the ammount of batteries it needs to carry with it (which could reduce the costs of an EV a great deal) 4) and can match if not surpass by far the ammount of miles you can cover in one stretch… the numbers I’ve play with give me a range of 400 to 700 miles before the wind-turbines need to be suplimented by external charging. (My petrol car averages no more than 300 and some change on one tank, with the average refueling occuring every 250 miles traveled.) The average ranges a wind-turbine powered car are equal and greater than to the highest range-performance EV’s or solars (that are too expensive in their construction to be mass-produced) IF, of course, the push-back (or drag) is not a signifcant force against the cars forward movement… (but, since it can’t be gotten rid-off, and is a huge factor especially at higher speeds, if it can be designed to channel air downward, and be used as a sort of internal front-rotating end-spoiler(s), it’s a workable idea… it just requires a whole new-conept car with several existing, but uncombined disciplines and technologies–which means it needs a lot of money, and a lot of geniuses behind it… Sadly, I must admit I’m neither rich, nor brilliant.) …hmm… I just hit on another thing… if the turbines are rotating downward, there would need to be a even-paring of them, and they would need to be geared to rotate counter to one another to allow the car to remain stable, and not significantly lean to the right or left once it started gettting up to speed! :-D

    If it can be built, like I think it can, in the way I’ve described, than it would be the greatest use of wind-propulsion since the sails that got us around the ocean centuries before we could make use of the steam engine and other propulsion designs. Of course, this design is less about natural wind, and more about channeling and harvesting airflow created from motion thru our atmosphere (essentially the common force behind drag and lift.)

    Anyways, that’s my take on it.

    Best Regards,

    Benjamin Tidwell

  48. Chic says:

    I guess some of you missed my earlier posting. I designed the inversion tunnel almost seven years ago. The tunnel fits where the motor of a car will go. Look back up the list and read my comments. Catch up with us.
    I appreciate your input, but I believe you are mistaken in the amount of electricity you can produce with a car driven inversion tunnel. I believe it is much more than is sufficient to run the EV and take care of all drag. It is enough to run the car and re-charge the battery pack. I did extensive research on this, but I could have made errors. I have asked anyone that is willing to make a prototype to prove or disprove the theory to do so. Get whatever patent you think you can. I do not have the money for either. If it works, I am giving my idea to the world. If not, we tried. The correct terminology for this technology is inversion tunnel in lieu of wind tunnel. The car collects wind instead of makes wind. The wind collected drives a squirrel type cage that turns the turbine located inside the engine compartment. If you have a better way to make a mouse trap, so be it, but please don’t miss the obvious on this one. So, please get that patent right away and be sure to sell it if it works to the auto makers and oil companies. We won’t ever hear of it again if you are successful. I plan on telling China and everyone in the world about it if it works. I want every Tom, Dick and Harry building one in his or her garage and driving them all over the planet. In the case the concept does not work, maybe it will help prolong the life of the vehicle. My name is Chic. Please read my story above. I can document every claim I made with internet dates going back 7 years. Good luck on being the first, and I really hope you build a prototype that works. The world needs it right now.

    Chic

  49. rokdcasbah says:

    You guys don’t get it. It doesn’t matter where you put the turbine, what sort of wind tunnel you make, if you can incorporate a battery…none of it.

    You cannot get energy for free. You can only convert existing energy of one form into another, and lose a ton of it in the process.

    To put it another way, the car isn’t “just” moving. There’s an internal combustion engine causing that. But throwing a windmill up there, you’re making more work for the engine. Makes no difference if it’s an electric car, or solar, or powered by farts.

    Regenerative brakes are not related, in fact what they do is the exact opposite of what a windmill would do. They capture the kinetic energy that you DON’T need (since you’re stopping anyway). Anything wind powered would be capturing kinetic energy that you DO need (for example, to get to your destination). So you put it in a battery? Great! You were better off not wasting it to begin with since you got less than a quarter of it back, and most of THAT escaped as heat while you were trying to charge the battery!

    A moving vehicle cannot make use of its own drag. End of story.

    Again, you are trying to convert the energy from the car’s motion into electricity and then back into motion. You can only lose energy that way. Once more: you will never, ever, ever gain energy that way. Does not matter where you put the blades, how large they are, any more than what color your car is.

    What the world needs is not false hope. It is actual solutions to problems. Like this circle I just squared…

  50. speedyJDP says:

    Sow what you are saying rokdcasbah is that air entering the front of a car either through its radiator grill or air dams will cause less drag upon hitting the radiator or other metal object in the automobile than if it were to hit the blade of a fan and create whatever amount of excess energy it was not creating previously? I am a bit confused by your statement.

  51. Goofball says:

    Yes, but suppose we have our wind forced turbine along with generators on all four wheels, solar panels, and a kite and key tied to the car? Gee whiz. I’m all for pedal power. LMFAO!

  52. Goofball says:

    Yes, but suppose we have our wind forced turbine along with generators on all four wheels, solar panels, and a kite and key tied to the car? Gee whiz. I’m all for pedal power. LMFAO!

  53. meps says:

    I get sick and tired of people saying it can’t be done. Just because you can’t do it does not mean it is impossible.

    Thank god Columbus didn’t belive them when they told him it couldn’t be done. Just because it is popular doesn’t mean it is right. Just look at the “Honor” killings overseas.

    Anyways back to the subject.

    1. Yes perpetual motion machine does exist. Just because we can’t re-create it doesn’t mean it is impossible. First one created was our universe, second our solar system, thrid our planet. It will spin and will keep on spinning for billions of years.
    2. Nano technology, has anyone thought about creating something to harniss the spin of the electron of an atom? Harniss the mechanical motion off that and you will have your infinite power.
    3. Power is created/converted all the time all around us, how do you think you move around, or given the energy to say it can’t be done.
    4. Perpetual motion machine will be created, but it will use mulitple technologies, not just one, example, gyroscope and aerodynamics. Sorry won’t let the cat further out of the bag.

    Sorry, back on topic.
    An Inversion tunnel is the way to go. The key factor is the exhaust of the tunnel. What is opposite of drag? Eliminate one force by another. Combine aerodynamics of a wing into the tunnel. You need the vacumm created to acheieve your results. Also poeple, start using gears, a simple transmission will help reduce the variable load on the electric motor. Another thing, variable flywheel, the faster it spins the bigger it becomes. The design will not create a car that will travel forever, but by my calculations with some of the current technologies we have today, I come up with a range of 500-600 miles for 2 people, average weight of 170.

    Sorry I stumbled onto this site while looking something up. Math is what I am good at, not spelling, so I am sorry for any spelling errors. Share your ideas, one person’s problem may have been fixed by another. Our society’s problem is everyone wants in for themselfs, and not for each other. Exmaple, the 100 mpg carborator, yes one was designed, built and works, Exxon bought the rights and refuse to release it. One person got rich, the rest got the shaft.

  54. unionengineer says:

    do enjoy the conversation at heart but as an engineering student studying the underlying principals at play here, there are several things I felt the need to comment on. First off E in must equal E out. Energy must be conserved. E gen can come into play and reduce your energy loss, it can never exceed it. Pressure drag which is the dominent force at higher speeds does not have a linear relationship with velocity. Some stated at a very high speed a turbine would create more power than a car would need to run. In actuality your efficency decreases past a certain critical point. If anyone has bothered to look at a pressure/velocity profile of a car you would realize that a high pressure low velocity region of turbulent air exsists directly in front of the car. The efficiency of any non inductive generation system mounted inside the hood would be extremely low. Boundary layer anyone? As far as inventing an inversion tunnel, try Bernoulli’s law. He has you beat by several hundred years. Look at the cooling system on a p-51 mustang. Also though the lifespan of the universe trumphs anything we can compare, it is not perpetual. Our sun just like any other body had a fuel source and a set life.

  55. unionengineer says:

    I meant to post this as well. Here is a perfect example of recapturing energy in a system that would have otherwise been lost rather than making things exceedingly inefficent. Cars as they stand are only 25 percent efficient. The most energy is lost in the drive train. Check this out, REAL HOPE not false.

    http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=467

  56. celtic_hackr says:

    Wow. A lot of negative uncreative people on this list. Also a lot of people not thinking it through. So here are some not so hard numbers.
    1) a battery powered car is about 95% efficient (ignoring the source of charging- i.e electricity from a powerplant).

    2) A wind turbine will be lees efficient than that, regardless of where you place it. Conservatively let’s say 40% (too tired to do the research and come up with a real number).

    By adding a well placed aerodynamically designed turbine into your electric car your efficiency will go down, thus reducing the charge faster.

    HOWEVER, if you use the turbine to recharge the batteries, then you will be pushing charge back into the batteries. So you’re now expending a let’s say 85% efficient battery system and recharging it back at 40%.
    This may actually *increase* the mileage you get out of the vehicle, but you of course wind up with a net loss in energy. So no perpetual energy, and yes more drag. But you are probably producing more energy than drag at the cost of more energy from another source.

    What many of you fail to see is that by adding the turbine you have added a new power source that can be used to partially charge the system while traveling. While not enough to allow you to drive from NY to CA on a single charge, it should allow you to drive father on a single charge. Adding solar sells on the surface of the vehicle would do the same. Would the expense of adding either or both pay for themselves over time?
    The turbine possibly, but only an experiment, hard calculation (break out the differential equations lads), or simulation could say. In the mean time try to ber more imaginative and less judgmental. It’s a good idea to explore, and could wind up in new and improved vehicle designs. After all turbines power most of our commercial and military aircraft. I don’t see any one talking about them as impossible.

  57. unionengineer says:

    Celtic_hackr, though I admire your enthusiasm your lofic is inherently wrong. I hate to say it again but due to conservation of energy this concept will not work. Search other threads, the same argument I am presenting is always cited. No matter how aero dynamic or streamlined you make the turbine, the drag it adds to this system will always create a loss overall. The electricty that you create with the wind generator will not be greater than the electricty consumed by the electric engine(s) to overcome the extra drag of the turbine. Think about it. Every time you change energy from state to state at best you loose 10%. In an ideal system, we would change from electricty -> motion -> electricity. Having lost 20% of the inital energy, your better off just letting the battery power the car from the begining. In effect the cars mileage will not increase. Solar panels deal with an entirly different system. Since their energy source is not directly related to the car you can claim energy that would have otherwise gone unused. However, the power it takes to move the additional wegiht of these panels must be less than the output of the solar panels. This idea has the potential to yeild a positive output in the system. I advise you to pick up a Thermodynamics or Physics textbook and read the sections on conservation of energy. I was optimistic at one point to, but learning the inneficency of the world around us makes one quite cryptic as time progresses.

  58. jmatt632 says:

    Ok, so its obvious that you can’t use this type of wind generator to get free energy, because that defies the laws of physics. But what if you were to use this kind of thing as a supplement to say, a gasoline engine. It would work like hybrid car, with the energy created by the turbine feeding into a bank of battery which the car could periodically switch to and run off of. Does anyone think this would be feasible?

  59. unionengineer says:

    I sincerely hope you are joking. If your not, I pity you.

  60. wsanders says:

    The problem with the wind/gas hybrid is that the gas engine is most efficient at powering the car at highway speeds, with the engine switching off for low-power, city driving. That’s how current hybrids work.

    The turbine as regenerative braking could work, if you could get it to pop out only during braking. But coupling to the wheels is much more efficient. Some airliners can pop a wind turbine out as a source of emergency power, but they travel very fast.

    I say, how about just a sail-powered car? Aside from the need to convert every overpass into a drawbridge to accomodate your 50-foot-high rig, all the fun of sailing with none of the salt-water corrosion problems!

  61. edrowe says:

    There are water pumps used in water features and ponds that have magnetic drives. The shaft of the pump is suspended by magnets instead of berrings. No friction
    or berrings to wear out. Could this tecnology be used to make a better generator powered by wind or whatever?

  62. tomina says:

    Probably there is a way to store energy
    of wind generator on a top of a car in
    a acumulator, then use it (when needed)
    to run a car.(sry-bad english)

  63. ljolley says:

    like it was said earler, it will take a combination things to make it work, less friction and 2 or 3 things working togather to charge the battary. I have been look at heat conversion from the motor to recharge the battary. has anyone heard of this being done before?

  64. randomguy27 says:

    What if the turbine were actually several small turbines that would sit in the grill of the car? Then the turbines are not adding drag since they would certainly not be less aerodynamic than the grill.

    The goal here is to replace existing air resistive areas of the car with a similarly resistive turbine that can generate charge to be stored in a battery. This would be an increase in overall efficiency.

  65. randomguy27 says:

    What if the turbine were actually several small turbines that would sit in the grill of the car? Then the turbines are not adding drag since they would certainly not be less aerodynamic than the grill.

    The goal here is to replace existing air resistive areas of the car with a similarly resistive turbine that can generate charge to be stored in a battery. This would be an increase in overall efficiency.

  66. randomguy27 says:

    What if the turbine were actually several small turbines that would sit in the grill of the car? Then the turbines are not adding drag since they would certainly not be less aerodynamic than the grill.

    The goal here is to replace existing air resistive areas of the car with a similarly resistive turbine that can generate charge to be stored in a battery. This would be an increase in overall efficiency.

  67. randomguy27 says:

    What if the turbine were actually several small turbines that would sit in the grill of the car? Then the turbines are not adding drag since they would certainly not be less aerodynamic than the grill.

    The goal here is to replace existing air resistive areas of the car with a similarly resistive turbine that can generate charge to be stored in a battery. This would be an increase in overall efficiency.

  68. notanengineer says:

    Wow! Such intelegence here! All the physics and thermodynamics talk. Simple questions….
    Which travels further, a 17″ wheel rotating 3 full revolutions or a 1″ wheel rotating 3 full revolutions?

    Ok, easy enough, now let’s reverse that….

    Which will charge more, a 17″ wheel attached to a generator moving along a 1 mile stretch or a 1″ wheel attached to the same generator over the same 1 mile stretch.

    Yes, the 1″ wheel will require more power to turn, but if using a 70mph sustained headwind NOT being supplied by the cars power source…..

    Think past your egos folks. It isn’t just a matter of energy in to energy out.

    And when someone gives a suggestion of a wind generator on a car, and the first thing you think of is a windmill on top? You might want to find another subject to follow and study.

  69. jd says:

    Something like this is what I imagine. Capturing otherwise waste and converting it to stored energy via batteries.

    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/09/tigers_exhaust_.html

  70. Posted by: notanengineer says:

    Yes, the 1″ wheel will Think past your eggos folks now let’s reverse that Which travels further, a 17″ wheel rotating? or a 1″ wheel attached to the eggos folks Wow! Such intelegence here

    Ok, so its obvious that you can’t use this type of wind generator to get free energy, because that defies the laws of physics. But what if you were to use this kind of thing as a supplement to say, a gasoline engine. It would work like hybrid car, with the energy created by the turbine feeding into a bank of battery which the car could periodically switch to and run off of. Does anyone think this would be feasible?

    Posted by: jmatt632 on October 15, 2007 at 10:17 AM

    I sincerely hope you are joking. If your not, I pity you.

    Posted by: unionengineer on October 15, 2007 at 6:08 PM

    The problem with the wind/gas hybrid is that the gas engine is most efficient at powering the car at highway speeds, with the engine switching off for low-power, city driving. That’s how current hybrids work.

    The turbine as regenerative braking could work, if you could get it to pop out only during braking. But coupling to the wheels is much more efficient. Some airliners can pop a wind turbine out as a source of emergency power, but they travel very fast.

    I say, how about just a sail-powered car? Aside from the need to convert every overpass into a drawbridge to accomodate your 50-foot-high rig, all the fun of sailing with none of the salt-water corrosion problems!

    Posted by: wsanders on October 30, 2007 at 3:10 PM

    There are water pumps used in water features and ponds that have magnetic drives. The shaft of the pump is suspended by magnets instead of berrings. No friction
    or berrings to wear out. Could this tecnology be used to make a better generator powered by wind or whatever?

    Posted by: edrowe on November 25, 2007 at 12:18 PM

    Probably there is a way to store energy
    of wind generator on a top of a car in
    a acumulator, then use it (when needed)
    to run a car.(sry-bad english)

    Posted by: tomina on December 12, 2007 at 4:06 AM

    like it was said earler, it will take a combination things to make it work, less friction and 2 or 3 things working togather to charge the battary. I have been look at heat conversion from the motor to recharge the battary. has anyone heard of this being done before?

    Posted by: ljolley on December 20, 2007 at 2:53 PM

    What if the turbine were actually several small turbines that would sit in the grill of the car? Then the turbines are not adding drag since they would certainly not be less aerodynamic than the grill.

    The goal here is to replace existing air resistive areas of the car with a similarly resistive turbine that can generate charge to be stored in a battery. This would be an increase in overall efficiency.

    Posted by: randomguy27 on December 22, 2007 at 5:28 PM

    What if the turbine were actually several small turbines that would sit in the grill of the car? Then the turbines are not adding drag since they would certainly not be less aerodynamic than the grill.

    The goal here is to replace existing air resistive areas of the car with a similarly resistive turbine that can generate charge to be stored in a battery. This would be an increase in overall efficiency.

    Posted by: randomguy27 on December 22, 2007 at 5:29 PM

    What if the turbine were actually several small turbines that would sit in the grill of the car? Then the turbines are not adding drag since they would certainly not be less aerodynamic than the grill.

    The goal here is to replace existing air resistive areas of the car with a similarly resistive turbine that can generate charge to be stored in a battery. This would be an increase in overall efficiency.

    Posted by: randomguy27 on December 22, 2007 at 5:30 PM

    What if the turbine were actually several small turbines that would sit in the grill of the car? Then the turbines are not adding drag since they would certainly not be less aerodynamic than the grill.

    The goal here is to replace existing air resistive areas of the car with a similarly resistive turbine that can generate charge to be stored in a battery. This would be an increase in overall efficiency.

    Posted by: randomguy27 on December 22, 2007 at 5:30 P

  71. Joe Rush says:

    Why can you not use a wind generator as drag to stop the car like have a wind generator with flaps that open
    up when you slow down like regertive braking. All brakes are are friction why not us drag to slow down.
    Then they close when you accerate again.

  72. Joe Rush says:

    Why can you not use a wind generator as drag to stop the car like have a wind generator with flaps that open
    up when you slow down like regertive braking. All brakes are are friction why not us drag to slow down.
    Then they close when you accerate again.

  73. Joe Rush says:

    What about the wheel it has alot of drag also. Maybe
    a hovercraft type vehical would get beter miliege with a friction wheel to limit friction the the road. like the hover scooter has.

  74. joe rush says:

    How about a sail with a generator on the wheels.
    The wind could push you down the street and charge
    up the batteriers for when there was no wind. That way
    the wind could push you and charge the battery for you all at the same time.

  75. Joe rush says:

    How about a two seat land yacht. The record speed is
    around 116mph, and if you had a generator on one of the wheels you could charge up the batteries then turn the generator into a motor with no wind. Would that be a wind powered electric vehical?

  76. joe rush says:

    I got a question what would happen if you put a windmill on a boat?

  77. joe rush says:

    What would happen if you used a windmill to sail down the street and had a brake on it so you could stop and start. Like apply the brake to go and release it to stop. I don’t now put up and down a sail wile going mite be a problem in town and brakes well wind gets kind of strong now and then. I think a stoped wind mill would have alot of drag as to one spining.

  78. joe rush says:

    A land yacht would have problems going up hill or into the wind that is were the electric motor would come in.
    rechable electric assited land yacht. I don’t now much about sail a ship just another stuid idea I have. When the wind is behind you you can charge the batteries.
    No wind for awaile or head wind you can let the wind mill spin freely and use the electric motor.

  79. Joe Rush says:

    I did a little experiment with wind mill on a boat.
    I stop the wind mill from spining and it harhly moved at all. While the wind mill was spining around it moved
    with no little air it assided the ship. just the backwards of how I thought it would work. It is like a air plain prop that spins into the wind it helps push it.

  80. JoeRush says:

    A wind mill on a boat helps the boat go. Why can not a windmill help a car go. May if you turn it backwards or
    something having the wind mill face tyhe oppised direction.

  81. Joe Rush says:

    Im going to try on more thing with the wind mill boat
    have the wind mill face to opposit direction. if it move towards thee air flow it will freck me out. By maybe that all the wind generator needs is turned around.

  82. Joe Rush says:

    Im going to try on more thing with the wind mill boat
    have the wind mill face to opposit direction. if it move towards thee air flow it will freck me out. By maybe that all the wind generator needs is turned around.

  83. Joe Rush says:

    Will I tryed it and it still goes with the wind while it spining. But there is some funning going on with it just sits there anyway you turn the boat it the tube it drifs backwards what is with that. There is something going on I don’t understand.

  84. Joe Rush says:

    I tryed something differnt I laid the wind mill down
    It goes faster backwards when it drifs. Does a BOAT
    trift backwars or what but it still blow with the wind.

  85. Joe Rush says:

    Something funnings going on I don’t understand I took off the windmill and it sat stll in the water. There must be some air movement the windmill moved away from the wind if there is any wind. laying down it moved faster backwards I turn it around all over but it still goes backwards some is funny when I turn the windmill upside down on the boat laying down it moved forward I still think the is a little air coming from some place but why does it move forward upside down laying on the boat.

  86. Joe Rush says:

    Some werd happen when the pin wheel was on backwards
    or the pin wheel was facing the wroung way I blow into it and it move toward the wind it only did it once thow.
    WEAD WERD WERD

  87. Joe Rush says:

    I have reched a conculion a backward face wind mill
    will suck the air if it is keeping the same rotation
    as is it assited blow the oppoist direction spining the same way as turned around to do that it must be at a angled to the wind to assit the vehical to keep the same rotation sucking and blow forward moved into the wind.

  88. Joe Rush says:

    My conculion was wroung you also have to have the wind coming from the other direction what is a wind dyeflactor I was look at a ship and they have sails bouching the wind a diferent direcntion like air coming from the frount now coms from the back. I think I was right about turning the prop around thow.

  89. Joe Rush says:

    One other thing I noticed about a pin wheel it is one directal only spins on way. I wounder what a cealing
    fan type wind mill would do? You turn the plates around and it blow the otherway it suck air. It is two way fan.

  90. Don says:

    My first car I bought used wind power to charge my battery. At a certain speed the fan disengaged from the motor to cool the engine and recharge my 12 volt battery since the fan was connected to the alternator.
    when that speed wasn’t met, the motor again started to turn the fan and alternator, It was made that way to save gas and increase mileage. each one of you have great ideas. go out and make it work. but know that my little car did do such a thing to save on gas usege.

  91. aRealist says:

    “1. Yes perpetual motion machine does exist. Just because we can’t re-create it doesn’t mean it is impossible. First one created was our universe, second our solar system, thrid our planet. It will spin and will keep on spinning for billions of years.”
    —-
    Dear God…

    NO, NO, and NOOO.

    Perpetual motion does -not- exist.
    1) The Universe. Its cooling over time, creating new suns takes energy..the expansion of the universe is SLOWING, it will eventually stop doing that, and collapse again under its own mass.

    2) The solar system. Gravity from many sources..the sun, other planets, asteroids..etc..all transfer energy from and to each other which affects orbits. Via Newton’s first law of motion, the planets will stay in motion until another energy affects them. Albeit SLOWLY, the loss of that inertial orbital energy comes about as other bodies affect them. One passing body might speed UP another, but the other had to slow down to do that. And there -is- loss in that energy transfer. Its never 100% efficient. Measure this in terms of millennia, not decades.

    3) Our planet. You know what, earth rotation is slowing every day. The tidal forces of the moon and sun acting upon the ocean ARE decelerating this planet. We used to have 8-10hr days..and the moon was close enough that it was 10x larger in view than it is today. Also..that demonstrates point #2. The earth exerts a positive drag on the moon, IT is accelerating away from the earth…again, at the cost of the earth rotating slower.

    As to your other points, youre a fool. Turn off WWF and tune into a science channel sometime.

  92. Kuma Cho says:

    Thus far I have not seen a viable reason that a Ram Air Turbine (rat) could not be used to charge the batteries of an electric vehicle.

    No, this is not an idea that will create a perpetual motion machine. That has been proven over and over again to be impossible.

    However, using a RAT to increase the usable life of a bank of batteries makes sense. I do not see why a system designed to use high pressure areas on a car to spin a RAT would not increase the usable range of a battery powered car.

  93. Vince says:

    I agree. We’re not talking about creating free energy. You nay sayers are acting like there is no wind being pushed out of the way of the car, and that it is perfectly aerodynamic without a wind-generator. No, it does have wasted energy. Hear this out. Instead of the wind that hits the front of the car and travels around to the sides, top, and bottom, how about it travels through a wind tunnel and exits out the sides or top of the front of the car driving a fan?? If you think about the squareness of the front of an SUV or a semi, and all the wind that hits the front of the grill, some of it cools the radiator, but alot of it is wasted. If it travels through a wind tunnel and back out, at high speeds it could be very useful.

  94. kristen says:

    For all the people who are laughing at this idea and making fun of us that are physics-ally challenged, I would just like to say that there have been MANY people throughout history that were laughed at because their ideas were “impossible”. That is until someone figured out how to make them possible. What if the Wright Brothers let people laugh them out of making a plane? Or Christopher Columbus was laughed out of taking his voyage? Seriously, the only way that things get changed is if people can ignore the naysayers and keep trying to do the impossible!

  95. kristen says:

    For all the people who are laughing at this idea and making fun of us that are physics-ally challenged, I would just like to say that there have been MANY people throughout history that were laughed at because their ideas were “impossible”. That is until someone figured out how to make them possible. What if the Wright Brothers let people laugh them out of making a plane? Or Christopher Columbus was laughed out of taking his voyage? Seriously, the only way that things get changed is if people can ignore the naysayers and keep trying to do the impossible!

  96. Moritz says:

    Hi Kristen, there is a big difference between the Wright Brothers/Columbus situation and this discussion: here the laughers apply more logic than the dreamers, with Wright/Columbus this was the other way around… ;-)

  97. use_everything says:

    Think flaps on an airplane. What are they for? Deploy
    air turbines [like flaps] on moving hybrid vehicles to slow down and capture free energy [to the batteries] at the same time. Toyota are you listening?
    This would work wonders on large trucks and high speed trains as well. Sorry Exxon.

    While you are at it put a real rudder and elevator on car roofs instead of the current wimpy efforts for further efficiency gains.

    Study nature to advance mankind.

  98. bennoski says:

    Eveytime something moves eg.car, plane there is wind resistance even if we are going in the same direction as the wind,why not harness it.Car manufacturers could build in sleek designs that only slight openings are visible but underneath the hood are small like windmills that only operate once the vehicles sensors detect a drop in battery power.These turbines would be making power everytime the vehicle moved, and would be stored in storage batteries possibly along the wheel well.We need better effecient batteries possibly not as bulky maybe more on the look of say a thinner rad or furnace filter size.We have power equipment that runs totally on batteries why not energize those batteries using wind! It is a totally free resource,maybe that’s the problem.

  99. bennoski says:

    I believe we are striving in the right direction just putting our thoughts and ideas out there and yes some are OUT THERE!we will reach where we want to be,the little snowball starts to roll and before you know it it’s a great earth moving avalanche.Without the ideas nothing gets done!

  100. Dawn says:

    I think that it is time to think out of the box. A lot on energy can be derived from acoustics or a vortex tube. Why don’t you expand your physics thinking. From a little research, no one seemed to actually research the idea for plausibility, the idea is not a bad one, for example,

    Could we convert our present cars to wind power?

    Not entirely and certainly not currently with the drawing board only theories and over all concept, however it is believed that we could retrofit them to use wind to increase the power efficiency and thus lower the fuel use by a wide margin. How would this be possible? Well the relative airflows of the air around the car would be sped up using a combination of sound or lasers and some aerodynamic principles of nature and this would increase the speed of the automobile.

    Well at least in the theory of such technologies such as vortex airflows induced on modern fighter aircraft. But still it would take a little bit of work to get that air moving that fast and thus a laser induced vortex might do the trick and this would be mounted on the front of your car you see? Sound to Sci Fi; yes well today it is, but tomorrow, well that is a whole different story you see?

  101. Dawn says:

    I think I jumped the gun a little. The first time I went through these comments I saw all the derogatory and negative comments but this second glance there are a lot of good ideas.

  102. Dan says:

    I would have to agree that the the concept of using a wind powered generator to take over the cars batteries and maintain speed is againts the laws of physics. BUT you could use say an alternater in combination with a fan or turbine or attached to the axle to charge the batteries during motion. Therby extending the driving distance by supplimenting the energy consumption, not replacing it. Since the alternater will have some drag reducing the movment of the car, would the power output make up for the drag induced by a fan or direct axle connect? Hmmmmm

  103. duva says:

    I guess you could make a drag-powered car perhaps…

  104. Lou Stirns says:

    If I used gravity to supply an endless supply of gas to my 10 kw generator. Would it or, would it not, supply an endless supply of electricty to my home???? Not counting break down and clogs. What we are doing in this application of a wind powered car with batt storage. Is use the endless supply of wind presure generated from the motion of the car. The question is? Can we generate MORE POWER than will be required to keep the car moving. I think we can by the use of good power management. Although drag plays a small roll in this application we can overcome this problem in several ways.

  105. Dog Thinker says:

    I read most of this and haven’t seen any comment on adding an amplifier to the equation. Could this use the existing power supplied from the inversion tunnel/solar panel to create a higher charge capacity to a group batteries used to power the vehicle?

  106. E-man says:

    Why does it necessarily follow that there must be a significant increase in drag? I’m new to this arena, but I think it’s all in the placement of the turbine. Consider that the present body designs of EV’s already create an inherent amount of drag in and of themselves. Now then, if the turbine(s) were to be placed in the front end of the vehicle as opposed to on the roof, much the same as the fan clutch in gas-powered vehicles, would not additional drag be minimized or eliminated? Such a design would not call for radical body design changes. Further the aerodynamics of some designs could easily be improved upon.

    In addition, one of the key disadvantages to present EV’s is the lack of range. If the additional power is dedicated to recharging instead of increasing speed it may well be worth the effort.

    I think it’s a great idea. I’ve been entertaining the same notion myself, ergo the interest in this matter.

  107. vitruvian says:

    I didn’t read through all of the comments, but I see it here and am continually told things like, “no free ride”, “no perpetual motion”, “X power out doesn’t = Y power in.” Seems the point is being missed or no one has explained it to my satisfaction yet. In the case of an electric car. Wind power, solar, even an extra drag wheel should all work. No, the input is not what runs the car. These power sources should be used simply to charge seperate, unused batteries. As the battery being used loses power, should be a simple case of switching over to the charged batteries. Similar to duel tanks on a truck. Now the battery that was running the car is being charged, while the extra/newly charged battery takes over. Perpetual motion or common sense? Perhaps it has something to do with not generating enough electricity. I don’t know. Not that well versed in the ways of Tesla.

  108. dennis says:

    I see it in these posts and have heard most of these arguements before. Seems the point is being missed. I continually see comments like, “no perpetual motion”, x power in doesn’t = y power out”, etc., etc. Forget trying to power the electric car using wind, solar, whatever. Seems to me that while,running the car on a fully charged battery, a seperate battery (or set) is being charged via these power sources. As the running battery goes dead, the newly charged battery takes over and the original battery is charged with the same system. Use the alternative electicity sources to charge a back up battery, then turn it on as needed. Perpetual motion or common sense? I am not schooled in the ways of Tesla, so it could be a matter of some mechanics I know nothing about. But if someone could explain to me why this would not work, I’d be interested.

  109. Dave says:

    Here’s what I think. That it’s possible to harness the wind energy at high speeds with a system using the wind PSI to turn the tips or blades of a propeller which spun a DC generator or alternator that gives you your power. Id simply feed the power generated into my battery bank that powers the drivetrain thus prolonging batter life and distance of the vehicle. Im not so sure you could simply run it with just speed alone unless your using top grade materials and pulsed DC power to conserve energy. The DC generator would always spin like a bicycle wheel. Gear ratios, prop scheme design, PWM contols, high grade magnets(to make your DC gen),air PSI. Something to think about. Remember, ‘professors’ teach….dreamers create.haha

  110. cj says:

    well there are other companies capitalizing on free energy. wind energy from wind turbine power generators, the HOOVER DAM, ect are just two examples. my idea is a little different but ive got reluctance to give it out here in fear someone might steal it. but it works when using battery powered toy motors so would just be a simple math to upscale it.

  111. Tim says:

    So for this to work in any way, the electricity produced and stored by the turbine has to be greater than the extra electricity used by adding the turbine.

    Is this correct? If so I only see design problems, not impossibilities

    I know the car will not power itself, but will it help save on recharges?

  112. J.anderson says:

    I tried to leave a comment a few days ago, but for some reason it didn’t take….

    The question is flawed fundamentally. You can never never generate any electricity through the use of harnessing wind on a car because the car as it travels through the air is not passing up waisted energy….

    The air passing over the car is LOAD! for someone to do this and it to work it would be the equivalent of making Hoover dam make more electricity just by having it supply alllll of California in addition to everyone else it already powers, thereby creating more Load for it to make more power…

    If you folks want a more scientific explanation, i’d be happy to spell it out in A-B-C format, but you have to realize the question is flawed.

  113. justchecking says:

    Has anyone tried the behind-the-grille-negligible-extra-drag idea with a gasoline engine to replace the belt-driven alternator? Belt-driven alternators rob gasoline engines of horsepower. If the 12 volt battery were charged solely via wind, what % efficiency could the engine gain? At least a few MPG?

  114. aaron says:

    take an s10 and do the electric motor swap reusing the 5 speed trans. in the bed have 2 independant battery packs. if i covered the bed with solar panels and put a couple wind turbines where the radiator used to be to charge the battery pack not in use….on a forever sunny day with no traffic on the freeway at optimal speed…would i ever have to stop?

  115. ed says:

    well it would work if you put the turbines under the bonnet and placed a grill to allow the air in to turn the turbines. a battery would be required to get the car to the optimum speed of 27mph where aproximatley the car would be able to power itself by wind. to reduce the drag you simply fit a grill in the top so that the air can be pushed from the bonnet which would reduce the dag by up to 70% giving the car natural speed. although the car could not go over a certain speed because the drag would get to much and it would begin to slow down again. My approximation for max. speed is 70mph.

  116. patent classifier says:

    Who ever said it can’t be done needs to expand their imagination – When it WILL be done. Here are just a couple of about a 100 patents for wind powered cars – Take a look at how the invention works and check out the dates 2005 and 2006 of these.. one for utilizing low drag –

    see images at:
    http://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat7147069.pdf

    United States Patent 7,147,069 – December 12, 2006

    Wind turbine driven generator system for a motor vehicle:

    The invention relates to a vehicle including a body having a one or more openings. The body is configured, such as through the use of air guides, to receive an airflow through the one or more openings. An electrical generator assembly is mounted inside the vehicle and in fluid communication with a respective opening to receive the airflow, and wherein a separate electric generator assembly is associated with each of the openings. Each electrical generator assembly includes a housing, an electric generator mounted to the housing and a turbine assembly coupled to the electric generator.

    here’s another:

    United States Patent 6,857,492- February 22, 2005

    Airflow driven electrical generator for a moving vehicle:

    An apparatus for generating electricity in a moving vehicle utilizes a low drag spirally shaped fin mounted longitudinally on a cylindrical component of a generator which receives air from a vent as the vehicle moves through air. The vent includes structure for bypassing at least a portion of the airflow through the vent as the vehicle moves faster through the air. The airflow causes the cylindrical member to rotate causing the generator to generate electricity. The rotating cylindrical member may be provided with magnetic material.

    for images checkout:
    http://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat6857492.pdf

  117. evan richardson says:

    Why couldnt we have a car powered by an electrical motor that is run on a power cell that is charged by AC current, (You plug itin over night)then that is constantly being recharged as you drive by solar panels on the roof simultaneously with wind turbines behind the grill in front and one placed much like a large spoiler on the back of the vehicle. The wind turbines would not actually run the motor, they would simply help recharge the batteries that in turn ran the motor.

  118. Ron Richards says:

    I have been thinking about this same idea for the longest time, but had a very hard time finding information about this specific subject. However I just found out that Mitsubishi has a concept car that is supposed to run off solar and wind power called Mitsubishi i MiEV Sport. It doesnt seem very effective but I think that over time it can evolve with further developments and engineering. Check it out, tell me/us what you think!

  119. Anonymous says:

    Who’s saying a completely perpetual motion car is what is wanted or needed or even implied here. We all know it doesn’t exist and can’t be done. Even with today’s modern engineering like the Tesla roadster electric car, that has an “extended” range of 220 miles. Couldn’t some wind turbines harnessing the “wind” power and/or the wind resistance on the car itself while driving 10,20,30,40… MPH already, turn a turbine that could help recharge the batteries when driving and make that 220 mile range now a 400 mile range ect… we aren’t asking for a free ride or perpetual motion but possibly charge and make the range of electric cars even longer. You would still have to hook your car up to an electric socket for 3 hours at a time to charge the things but half as often (400 miles instead of 220) or even more….?

  120. Aggie says:

    ok… ok, i have a question and would like to know if there would be a net energy gain. This thought had 2 proponents…

    1. We all know HHO gas can be used in normal car engines, and the energy to produce the gas is far less than what is needed to power an electric car.
    2. wind electric generators that are as large as headlights but its power output is sufficient enough to power the conversion of water to hho gas alone. i was also thinking if the propellers in the system to assist in decreasing the drag by syphoning the air.

    i was thinking about a few concept as well, 4 wind/electric systems above each tire, or 2 within the front bumper.

  121. Betazero says:

    There is already a tunnel on every automobile ready to power it. The underbelly of the vehicle is the perfect place for tumblers like for a watermill. Just half would be exposed and even something could be incorporated around the axle. Souldnt be a significant increase in drag as long as the tumblers were staggered. You could cover the whole bottom of the car with them. If it was raining you would have a hybrid water/wind powered vehicle :)

  122. catfishdaddyengineering says:

    What if you used the output of the wind generator to run just the electrical parts of an ICE-powered vehicle? Size the wind generator to charge the battery and power the coils, fuel pump, electric fans, lights, radio, etc. This would do away with the need for alternator, thereby reducing load on the engine. When stopped, the battery would supply the power for all above.

  123. curtiss says:

    multiple small turbines fed by hood scoops or other air vents in the car’s body, geared so that their generators turn multiple revolutions per propeller revolution. and certainly the power required to KEEP a vehicle moving 50 miles per hour is less than that required to GET the vehicle to 50 mile per hour. again, gear the car’s transmission so that at speed X, the motor providing thrust to the car is spinning at a lower RPM than the generators. certainly that could potentially boost the battery charge and range of the car significantly. of course windmills/turbines don’t currently exist that are designed for sustained windspeeds of 50+ mph. and i don’t know what the math says about how much electricity could be generated by one. it is possible to charge a battery with a windill. how can we say it’s impossible to charge an electric car’s batteries enough to extend their range?

  124. James says:

    I believe there is a place for wind power on an automobile and that the problem simply hasn’t been engineered enough. I also understand that a perpetual motion machine isn’t going to happen. I’ve been expirementing with my own vehicle (2001 Toyota Rav4L, four cylinder gas engine, five speed manual transmission) and playing with hypermiling techniques. During the course of this I realized just how well my vehicle coasts when I put it in neutral (I know its not suggested to coast in neutral, but hey it works), especially when going down hill. What if there was a sytem for deploying or exposing a windmill on the car when a decline is detected? When I go to work I have to deal with two large hills, one of which is almost two miles of constant inclination. When I come home I have coasted for two miles down hill without giving it any gas. I could be generating electricity that whole time without using any energy to propel the car forward, momentum and gravity take care of that.

    Obviously I’m not suggesting that people drive up and down hills solely to power their vehicle. I’m sure more power would be used getting up the hill than would be generated coming down it. However, I work at the top of a big hill. Whether I have a gas engine, electric engine, or a hamster on a treadmill, I still have go up that hill, so why not take advantage of coming down it. And on the steeper parts of the hill the windmill could be exposed more and the added drag would help regulate my speed a little, and the generated power would extend my range, even if was only by a few miles. every bit counts.

  125. Thinking says:

    I think the problem some people are missing is that once u introduce an obstacle to air, this is the drag most are talking about. The air hits the turbine blade which is the drag. Or if you ducked the air around the car to the trunk, every little turn that occurs to “turn” the wind where u want it to go is also drag no matter how small the bend of the tube is. This power to drag ratio is what is hurting the idea. You could have many little turbines mounted any where in the car but still there would be no difference. Every bend, curve and turbine blade that the air has to travel over or around is what causes this system to have a negative output. (According to physics i assume)

    We have to think of other natural sources such as gravity and of course solar. If we could make a 1 square inch solar panel that weighed less than a pound and produced 1000kwh, I think we could power a car or anything for that matter and the energy would be free. (Unless our sun dies/its night/cloudy/bird poop etc.)

    Now that i think of it, maybe the only free energy is solar energy. I meen if we used gravity as a source, yea u can make somthing fall but in order to make it fall again, u have to lift it back up some how.

    I do agree though that combining all of these elements into one system has potential to increase our distances in vehicles. But at the moment the only perpetual motion machine I see is one that lasts as long as our universe exhists. Which to me, anything that lasts longer than I live is a perpetual machine. ;p

  126. tasha beasley says:

    why couldn’t wind turbine generators be hooked to all 4 tires on a EV? No drag, just the technology of the turbines. The wheels constantly turn as does a wind turbine. What’s the difference? I’m going to try to put these thoughts into a car and see what happens…

  127. Bill says:

    This concept has been working for years. A friend of mine has been working on it for a long time, the secret to making it work is that you have to do everything the right way. I dont know this stuff so ill tell you what I know. The turbines he made were specifically made to be small and way more efficient than an alternator working in a car, he placed 5 of these turbines where the car would usually have its drag naturally, in the grill of the car. Each turbine would produce about 400 watts at 35 mph and max out at 850 watts at higher speeds.

    This is not the only place where the car receives power from though, he built generators that give basically no drag into the wheels of his car which produces much more power.

  128. Joe says:

    What I see here is that what we’re talking about is if it is cost effective to create energy from a wind turbine, not perpetual motion or anything else. If we put a wind turbine up on a hilltop and use it to charge batteries to produce electricity, 100% energy gain right? When we drive down the highway from point A to point B we use a certain amount of energy (fuel) to get there. If we put a wind turbine on a car and travel from point A to point B we produce a certain amount of energy. The net energy gain would be the difference between that certain amount we produced and how much extra energy (fuel) it took us to carry the wind turbine. ( After all we are going to go from point A to point B anyway.)
    So how much energy (fuel) does it take to carry that wind turbine? If we were carrying another person in the car it would take extra energy to transport that person depending on their weight. So the weight of the turbine and its battery would have to be considered. Also unlike a person sitting inside a car, the wind turbine would be outside in direct contact with the air. This contact would create drag against the force (energy) moving the car. Now, I’m no physicist but they say that drag is made up of friction forces that act parallel to the object and pressure forces that act perpendicular to the object. In other words if we picture our car as a box moving through air the pressure forces would be acting against the front of the box and the friction forces would be acting against the top, bottom, and two sides of the box. The back of the box would have no drag forces acting on it there would be a draft.
    Now if we put a wind turbine directly in front of our box, the front of the blades would have pressure forces acting against it and the thin sides would have friction forces acting on it. The front of our box directly behind the blades would have a draft sort of like a race car drafting another race car in front of it. So with the exception of friction forces of the thin blades edges, putting a wind turbine directly in front of our box would have little affect as to drag. In fact, if we recess the turbine blades even with the box it should be a wash as to drag whether we have a wind turbine on our box or not. Now we don’t drive down the road in square boxes, the front profile of a car box is curved and angled to trade higher pressure forces for lower friction forces with respect to drag. But I can imagine that a turbine could be places in such a position on a vehicle, as Bill’s friend has done, as to be neutral with respect to drag.
    That brings us to hauling the extra weight of the turbine and its parts. A small wind turbine weights about 20 lbs. A 12V battery weights about 20 lbs. So how much energy (fuel), and lets get in cost here, would it take to carry 40 lbs from point A to point B? Let’s say a 3000 lb. car that gets 20 mpg goes 60 miles in 1 hour. With gas at $4/gal it would cost $3. To transport another 40 lbs. it would cost $.16 or so. A wind turbines annual energy output in kwh= .01328 x Diameter of the rotor squared (say 9′ for a 3′ turbine) x mpg cubed (60x60x60) or 2.9kwh produced for that one hour 60 mile drive. At electricity costs of $.10kwh thats a net energy gain of $.13. Hey its a start. Of course, in this equation, as the price of fuel goes up it actually makes this less attractive. But we could all move to California where electricity costs more.
    I welcome your rebuttal but don’t just say that the Second Law of Thermodynamics make this impossible. Show me.

  129. Phil says:

    “Professors teach, dreamers create“ – Dave

    What an incredibly arrogant man you are. You look down your nose at the academics who invented and built the modern world. People who dedicate their lives to really understanding and expanding their fields, and people who created most of the things that you use throughout your daily life.
    You steam in with five minutes worth of basic physics and suddenly develop a superiority complex.
    It won’t work, it’s asinine, it’s frivolous, and here’s why.

    “Well.. you could just stick a turbine behind the grill, couldn’t you?”

    No! Air does not go straight through the middle of your car, does it? Because the pressure just inside the grill and outside the grill is more or less the same, you won’t get airflow. You get a little at high speeds, but you still need a fan on your radiator to pull the air in. If you want a turbine to work, then you’d have to put a duct in from the front of the car to the back. You’ll then get copious amounts of drag, which is one of the reasons it isn’t done that way.

    “But you’d get something without ducting it, surely?”
    Oh yeah, the turbine might turn a bit with the airflow between the grill and the bottom of the engine bay, but you’re then slowed down the air movement between those two points. Drag. Not a lot, but you’d hardly be making any energy, either.

    “Well, it’d work in a headwind, anyway..”
    No it wouldn’t!
    A headwind will increase drag of the entire car as well as increasing the airflow around your turbine, thus giving you no net gain at all.

    I’ll try and put this in really simple terms. There is nothing magic about air. If you grab on to any stationary object whist you are moving, be it brick, carpet, jam, cheese… whatever, you will transfer some of your kinetic energy to it. The same goes with air.
    This is roughly the same as putting an alternator in an electric car. It’s totally pointless.

    I hope I’ve put this in clear enough terms, but.. as an aside, please remember:

    - Just because something is patented doesn’t mean it works.
    - Please stop trying to infer that scientists and creative people are two separate animals.. We’re creative people that apply science to originate new things. We’re the same as you ‘creative people’, it’s just that we went to university for a few years.
    - Breaking any of the laws of thermodynamics would not simply be a small blip in physical theory; it would turn the whole applecart upside down.

  130. Mr.Cz says:

    I have had similar ideas to this man. I know, thermodynamics. However, what about if you amplified the electricity coming from the ducted fan (yes, I know drag)? Also, I would like to incorporate solar energy, as said above, static electricity from all over the car (brakes, opening/closing the door, basically anything that causes friction). We could use magnetism to amplify the voltage charging the batteries from any of the number of sources. We could make opening and closing your door produce enough energy to start up your car, couldn’t we? Should we create a small duct( maybe an inch in height spanning across the width of the roof) and concentrate the airflow into a small duct (which would house the fans), then took the energy created from that and took it down to the wheels and there we would amplify it to create even more electricity (not so much we make the batteries explode) and from there it would travel to the batteries and charge and recharge them. The idiots above that said that if the wind was blowing with you or from the side…. wow… Anyways, we could also incoporate solar panels onto the hood, trunk, and roof (including the hoodscoop), I believe that we could create a viably electronic car. Of course, we would have to replace the batteries every so often, less and less the better technology became, but think of it this way, how many cars have you bought in the past 5 years? Some of us, it’s maybe one or two, but others… it’s 10-20. If we only had to replace the batteries one or twice every five years, and it’d still be cheaper than buying a new or even used car from a dealership, wouldn’t it be worth it? Go ahead, disprove me, I don’t care. I’ll find some way to make this work.

  131. classy says:

    you had 3, 12 inch fans in the front of the car that made the electriciy with a generator & had a wind output in the back? would that at least reduce drag? & you would have three times the power so that would, in theory make up enough power opposed to one turbine which people previously have stated, clearly isnt enough. & the genorators would recarge the batteries while being used by the motor, running the car. just an idea i thought up in the middle of statistics because i was bored. im not sure if it would actually work so im open to POSITIVE criticism.

  132. Donovan Horninger says:

    all You do is you create a magnetic levitation car wiithe a solor panel and a wind mill. Wouldn’t the car tjat is levitated be so light that a wind powered car make the car go very fast! All these people don’t think autside of the box. Well I do.

  133. A Einstein says:

    There is a realistic way of collecting energy whilst driving a vehicle without causing negative effects or drag.
    Use the wasted exhaust gas & heat from your pipe/s. This energy is of no further use to the vehicle & can be used to drive a small thermoelectric generator etc etc etc. In fact you could use heat from the engine block too.

  134. Darek Gorenflo says:

    I have not been able to read all the comments above and oppologize if I copy someone here.

    How about taking a newer, more aerodynamic car that we have today with the ground effects. Use the scoop(s) as a collection port into tunnels that runn through the car and out the back. Inside these tunnels, place at least 10-15 fan generators. Now, you can collect wind to power these generators in any wind situation. Now you will have to have enough power in the battery to start the vehicles motion and reverse would be a problem. you need to lighten the frame and use the basic electric car system to operate the vehicle. This could be done to almost any car and sensible truck. Many cars have scoops, wheter true or fake, that could be used. Or you could add one or more add keep a car looking good without protruding fans from the exterior and creating more drag. Personally, I would have 6 scoops tunneling through a car. Two running under the nose of the car, one on top of the hood, one into the roof top (around the sunroof), and one on each side probably in the rear quarter panels. If I placed 4 generators in each tunnel, I would have 24 generators to create power. Keep in mind, the intake would need to be larger than the tunnel to create more wind pressure for the fans. but this would definitly allow for a good source of wind power and a sharp looking electric car.

    Darek

  135. aaron says:

    actually air flows freely through your car grill…you dont need a fan at all unless you are going to be stopped at idle for an extended period of time, thats why they switched from belt driven to electric to begin with for more horsepower and fuel economy…the engine bay is not air tight there is a big gaping hole under your engine…im a mechanic…overheating at stops and fine on the highway is a common electric fan failure symptom…

  136. aaron says:

    dont even need highway speeds really…30mph give or take depending on shroud and ram…i dont see a wind turbine being more drag than a radiator…dont even see the need for through car tunnel it is basically there already.

  137. daxx says:

    zero drag is the key for making a free energy car

  138. Grant VanHorn says:

    Really if you could put water in the gas take add befor it went in to the engien you could just spit it so you could also proudce oyzgen for the split H2O

  139. Grant VanHorn says:

    You could still use the electric to split it

  140. Grant VanHorn says:

    i meant tank not take
    also i’M BAD AT SPELLING

  141. guardian2380 says:

    Back in the 1960′s an engineer for an American auto manf. made a protype electric car. The company put the idea on the side because at the time it would only go for 50-55 miles. They didn’t expect it to be a big idea.

    For a little over 9 years, I have been trying to find a way to power an electric car by wind generator. The fact is that it IS possible. However, the cost to buy all the parts, and the batteries is too high. It uses the same type of generator used in wind powered houses.

    If the car is traveling at a steady speed of 40mph or higher, then it will keep power running to the motors(one at each wheel). However, when a strain is applied to the motors, the battery pack must kick back in to be the primary source of power, and the generator becomes the secondary aid. The battery pack always supplies power to the other electrical systems in the car. Also, note that the car used in this design weighs less than a Chevrolette Corvette with out the engine and tranns.

    The car is a small 2/3 seater that has very little trunk space. Front wheel drive, and has an opening at the front with a smal grill to keep large insects out of the fan area. It uses a design of fan similar to a squirl cage fan, or also known as a blower. The cars foward motion causes wind to be forced into the engine compartment where it hits the fan. Then, as the fan spins, it turns a shaft that is connected to a gear box that increases each rpm by a multiple of 39.473 so that the generator spins faster than the fan. (an example of this is seen in large wind powered generators. They average 38rpm at the fan, yet the generator spins at approximately 1500rpms.)

    I am in the process of trying to find a company that want to try to build this car. It trully fits the image of the car of the future.

  142. antripathy says:

    It is possible.Depends on design.The perpetual machine doubt is unfounded because the atmosphere is so full of solar heat energy which we measure in degrees of centigrade etc.And the energy rich atmosphere cannot be so jealous as to transfer some energy to a wind turbine mounted on a moving thing.In fact it does so when a wind hits wind turbine fixed to the ground.The 2nd law of thermodynamics is applicable only to heat engines where the entire heat can not be converted to work.This law was formulated when designing steam engines, inernal combustion engines etc.It needs a review,research.

  143. Rick Hoffman says:

    Gaurdian2038 I have a few questions:

    It uses the same type of generator used in wind powered houses.

    How large is the generator you are using?

    If the car is traveling at a steady speed of 40mph or higher, then it will keep power running to the motors(one at each wheel).

    What kind of motors are you using? AC or DC also do you have any idea of rolling resistance they generate?

    The battery pack always supplies power to in the car.

    What type of batteries are you using?

    it turns a shaft that is connected to a gear box that increases each rpm by a multiple of 39.473 so that the generator spins faster than the fan. (an example of this is seen in large wind powered generators. They average 38rpm at the fan, yet the generator spins at approximately 1500rpms.)

    How much addition resistance does this produce at the fan or wind turbine you are using?
    Do you have a current/voltage output number from the generator? It sounds like you are using a single fan/turbine. Have you looked at multiple small turbines to turn the generator?

    All of my questions are because I am currently looking to design and prototype a horizontal wind turbine system similar to what you discribe. My initial testing will involve first looking at voltage/amperage directly off the turbine. My design is currently focused on charging the batteries and not necessarily supplying energy to the motor/motors. I believe that a compound wind turbine/solar solution could lead to extended battery range. I sincerely look forward to hearing your or anyone’s response to my questions.

    Thanks much
    the CADdawg

  144. J.R. says:

    Lots of talk of “drag” in the tons of replies above. Seems to me that considerations should first be made to select a highly aerodynamic vehicle to start with where the vehicle design minimizes drag right off the bat. Obviously, implementing any type of “wind powered” vehicle design will have vastly different results should you start with a Honda Accord compared to a Chevy Van. Comparing the two frontal cross-sections and aerodynamic characteristics will certainly be comparing apples and oranges.

    Secondly, you should take into account vehicle weight. In the cycling world, this is considered “free speed”. A 250 pound cyclist on the fastest bicycle in the world could be a little faster if he lost 20 pounds (all other things being equal). Another way to think of this is to test your current gas powered vehicles fuel efficiency both before and after towing a heavy load. Which takes more energy to put in motion and keep in motion? Thus, the lighter the vehicle (assuming the same powerplant), the less energy to get it moving and keep it moving. Back to my Honda vs. Van comparison; it seems to me that choosing the lighter vehicle puts you at a greater energy-requirement-for-acceleration advantage than the van. Take it to an extreme by using carbon fiber body panels and an aluminum frame (or just start with a Corvette or McLaren F1) and your driving range just increased even more.

    Friction lost to the ground should be minimized by choosing smaller, narrower tires. The less rubber on the road, the less friction slowing you down.

    I like the idea of the pass-thru inversion tunnel (ala Ram air) where air that would otherwise be pushed around the outer front corners of the car (heavy drag) would pass through a set of tunnels to spin a series of propeller tips or some type of horizontal helical cylinder fan, and finally passed out towards the back or sides. This exhausted air could ultimately be designed to have a positive affect on any aerodynamically turbulent areas on the sides, beneath, or behind the vehicle. just an idea.

    After reading all of the posts above, I’m still not clear if the turbine connected to an alternator could supply enough regenerative power to extend the single-charge mileage by a respectable amount (not suggesting infinite).

    Add high performance solar panels, and even more supplemental charge = more driving range.

    I do wonder if the EV’s motor could be configured to pulse on/off smoothly while in motion to take advantage of free coasting travel, or toggle off during downhill sections until slowing speeds required more power.

    I think you should be able to get some serious extended range by incorporating high performance solar panels, some type of inversion tunnel wind turbine configuration, and high performance batteries, all coupled together with an ultralight, aerodynamic body design.

    Perpetual motion? I think the solution to that lies in human ingenuity, advances in technology, and $$$$$. If the modern calculator has more computing power than the first space shuttle then this hurdle too is only a matter of time until technology finds a solution.

    “Those who say it can’t be done are usually interrupted by others doing it.”
    ————– James Arthur Baldwin

    “There exist limitless opportunities in every industry. Where there is an open mind, there will always be a frontier.”
    ————- Charles F. Kettering (inventor of the electric starter)

  145. mrtech says:

    OF COURSE IT CAN BE DONE. I have recently started the same project with a few different variations, but the question shouldnt be whether or not it can be done. But how it can be done. Drag is really not a problem as you can use it to work for you not against you. As for the initial power you would need to get the car up to speed is just a matter of how you set the system up to operate. Nothing is impossible.

  146. Mark says:

    My question is, why can’t a person create a car that has a battery that is solar powered and then when the vehicle is moving along at cruise speed, is then continously charged by the movement of the fan by the wind thereby allowing continous motion?

  147. Brianna says:

    I DON’T UNDERSTAND!!

    Many people mention the DRAG creates a LOSS, but I don’t understand how this is so? that thing is spinning like mad if you are on the freeway….it’s generating a lot of power…the air is flowing through….how is this significant Drag compared the the huge hunkin’ CAR itself…that to me is what is creating the Drag…not the smaller wind turbines either on the roof or under the hood. Especially if they are lightweight. I DON’T GET THIS LOGIC???? Is there something I’m missing? It seems like a no-brainer that it would work…people are already use wind turbines for forward motion, right?

  148. Ajay says:

    My problem is that I don’t have that much money to make my invention. I want a sponsored

  149. pa;asa=fsdkoh says:

    its very bad and 3 class

  150. praveen says:

    what if fans r mounted in ducts ….containing multiple motors in it ….is it possible to reduce the drag and in turn increase the power ,is it effective ….the question of drag arises only when the vehicle moves at high speeds

    Now can we use these fans normally i.e without placing them in air ducts ,it can used as a city crusier …usually in cities we r travelling at less speeds …,
    these is done by placing these fans in console (like the bonnet )does it work …???

  151. Johnson says:

    I feel with depleting fossil fuel the idea to drive a vehicle using a natural resource is good. Many automotive companies are trying to introduce an alternative method to manufacture their vehicles. This is the best practice by the automotive companies to build a hybrid vehicle.

    Johnson@ http://www.usedtruckjunction.com

  152. Solar Concert says:

    What if you put a fan/generator mounted on the front of the car where the drag is already present, hook the generator to a charge controller and feed the 12 volts/40 watts to the battery bank on an EV electric car thus charging the batteries any time your moving fast enough to spin the blades.

    I know it won’t make you go faster. But, will it increase your distance by recharging the battiers as the wind turns the generator / 8 inch fan while the car is moving down the road ???

    Solar Concert

  153. harkins says:

    I was thinking the same thing every post i read is talking about a genarator on top but what if it was in font of the car like a air intake on a gas burner it just used the air to move the turbine when moving to repalce the lost of the batterys so it replace the power used to move the car then in stop and go taffic you would use the elitic engine with battery. then you could use the air to cool the engine and make prower. or cool the passengers just wanted to see what people thought sorry about the bad spelling

  154. oscarwlewis says:

    More information in this site reducing the cost of wind turbines. http://solarpanelplansresource.com/articles/reducing-wind-turbine-costs/

  155. Ecoking says:

    Hey my names lucas king from lakeville and i have been thinking about a car that could use air to make electricity. i really believe it could work. i even made a virtual design of the car by useing google sketch up. the thing is im not 18 so i dont have any way of getting it out there to be tested. form reading the past comments it seems that people really believe it wont work. and when i made the design i didnt think of just using one turbine i thought of using four. and they were absolutley not put o the top of the car. they were put on the inside were u would find the engine. i need to go so if u want to talk and see the design cantact me at kinglucas12@gmail.com or 810 262 1612.

  156. Anonymous says:

    Make a wind powered turpine engine by using the air that travels though the front of the car and to stop it you not only use four wheel dics brakes but an engine brake as well. You also could use the same setup for a wind power electric car. Also you could also use a pully setup and use a high output generator are even solar power to charge the batteries with a storage unit for when the sun don’t shine . So you would still be able to charge your batteries. I’m Mark Henderson

    1. Anonymous says:

      If you think this is a real possibility, our company might be interested in sponsoring a prototype van in about two years. Are you linked with the people and facilities to be interested in engaging in this effort if we decide to go forward with it?

      1. Moe Bishop says:

        yeah, I was thinking of doing the same thing. Use a long fan so the wind travels through the fan at the top and releases the wind at the other end of the fan with minimal drag, I think with a series of light weight fans on the roof of the car might be a good idea too. I don`t think you could use the conventional bulky turbines though, all they do is cause drag. The fan blades would have to go with the wind and not against it! The wind would have to be a funnel system to the top of the fan and release it on the other end. I looked for lighter batteries too, weight is important and I see there making them real light these days. I was thinking of using a three battery system too, so you could put the batteries on a trigger switch, the idea is to charge the batteries separate so the one you did use has a chance to fully charge before you use it again, thus making it a longer trip or a trip that might not ever end! You could use some other goodies too like regenerative breaking or maybe some sort of tire rub, using generators that clip onto the wheels sort of like the lights that you used to use as a kid on your bike to make your headlight bright when you peddle. I think the faster you drive the more wind you would create the faster your batteries will charge! The whole idea would be to create a system that would create enough volts able to charge the batteries separately!

      2. Moe Bishop says:

        yeah, I was thinking of doing the same thing. Use a long fan so the wind travels through the fan at the top and releases the wind at the other end of the fan with minimal drag, I think with a series of light weight fans on the roof of the car might be a good idea too. I don`t think you could use the conventional bulky turbines though, all they do is cause drag. The fan blades would have to go with the wind and not against it! The wind would have to be a funnel system to the top of the fan and release it on the other end. I looked for lighter batteries too, weight is important and I see there making them real light these days. I was thinking of using a three battery system too, so you could put the batteries on a trigger switch, the idea is to charge the batteries separate so the one you did use has a chance to fully charge before you use it again, thus making it a longer trip or a trip that might not ever end! You could use some other goodies too like regenerative breaking or maybe some sort of tire rub, using generators that clip onto the wheels sort of like the lights that you used to use as a kid on your bike to make your headlight bright when you peddle. I think the faster you drive the more wind you would create the faster your batteries will charge! The whole idea would be to create a system that would create enough volts able to charge the batteries separately!

  157. Anonymous says:

    Wind powered turpines with engine brakes and all wheel dics brakes wind travels though the front of the car. Wind powered electric car setup almost the same way the wind travels through the front of the car spinning a light weight fan wind is channeled through a small tunnel that once was where the engine and transmission home.

  158. Anonymous says:

    Every home and factory should be powered by windmills this would cut down on the use of electric power. Saving the companys money and creating more jobs at the same time. Cause with the use of more windmills there would have to be someone to fix them if they break down. Also this would promote clean air.

  159. Whoa! Wind powered car? This is an awesome idea! This truly proves that the development of technology may help save the Earth from pollution. Hmmm… maybe many wonder if this idea would fit for used cars, too?
     

    Simon Schempp

  160. Whoa! Wind powered car? This is an awesome idea! This truly proves that the development of technology may help save the Earth from pollution. Hmmm… maybe many wonder if this idea would fit for used cars, too?
     

    Simon Schempp

  161. Whoa! Wind powered car? This is an awesome idea! This truly proves that the development of technology may help save the Earth from pollution. Hmmm… maybe many wonder if this idea would fit for used cars, too?
     

    Simon Schempp

  162. Whoa! Wind powered car? This is an awesome idea! This truly proves that the development of technology may help save the Earth from pollution. Hmmm… maybe many wonder if this idea would fit for used cars, too?
     

    Simon Schempp

  163. Brian says:

    I also agree with the windpowered car but what I think they can build is a fan that is conected to a electric turbine as when it spins it turns the rotor on the turbine which creates electricity to keep the batteries charged with the car also having a 5 gal. back up fuel supply just when the batteries would drop to a low voltage ( as in trafic jams) now the fan would actually be just under the hood which would be in a horizontal position, thus being between the hollow layers of the hood, with the shaft that would just come down through the bottom of the hood and into the turbine gears, so as  wind goes through baffels in the hood angled at a certain angle as to push the fan around to turn the turbine to create enough electicity to store in a battery to be used through out the other batteries that are drawing voltage to keep the car battery source full. thanks, brian harkleroad 

  164. Brian says:

    I also agree with the windpowered car but what I think they can build is a fan that is conected to a electric turbine as when it spins it turns the rotor on the turbine which creates electricity to keep the batteries charged with the car also having a 5 gal. back up fuel supply just when the batteries would drop to a low voltage ( as in trafic jams) now the fan would actually be just under the hood which would be in a horizontal position, thus being between the hollow layers of the hood, with the shaft that would just come down through the bottom of the hood and into the turbine gears, so as  wind goes through baffels in the hood angled at a certain angle as to push the fan around to turn the turbine to create enough electicity to store in a battery to be used through out the other batteries that are drawing voltage to keep the car battery source full. thanks, brian harkleroad 

  165. Brian says:

    I also agree with the windpowered car but what I think they can build is a fan that is conected to a electric turbine as when it spins it turns the rotor on the turbine which creates electricity to keep the batteries charged with the car also having a 5 gal. back up fuel supply just when the batteries would drop to a low voltage ( as in trafic jams) now the fan would actually be just under the hood which would be in a horizontal position, thus being between the hollow layers of the hood, with the shaft that would just come down through the bottom of the hood and into the turbine gears, so as  wind goes through baffels in the hood angled at a certain angle as to push the fan around to turn the turbine to create enough electicity to store in a battery to be used through out the other batteries that are drawing voltage to keep the car battery source full. thanks, brian harkleroad 

  166. I dreamed this quite a few years ago. I KNOW my idea will work, i’m just not exactly sure how to implement it. I’m not going to give it away on here but if someone out there knows more about the electrical engineering then please send me an email and I would love to talk to someone about it.
    rustkings@yahoo.com

  167. Wajahat Ali says:

     i am working on it ,and i am sure that i can make this car soon……………..

  168. Anonymous says:

    this sounds like a wicked idea! although i can imagine a lot of trial and error for getting the 2 sources to work together, what about when you break will the wind turbine switch off? also the wind turbine could recharge the battery
    buddy t
    owner of – kinetic energy

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  170. Chevanne says:

    wow, I am 14 and I was oblivious to the fact that someone had thought about this already, exactly what i had in mind too

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  174. Nishant Kumar says:

    pls read this peice of article fully

    dont leave half read due to my english

    I can give u a full proof idea if we fix an exaust type fan which will be fitted just infront of the radiator of the car and direct it towards the front side with an opening it ll draw in the air.

    just let me explain..

    first we will start the car with the help of a battery same as in electric cars. after that we will move the car that ll draw in the air which will rotate the fan fixed there near the radiator. we will fix a nested axle there by fixing the biggest one in the fan and the smallest one in the dynamo which will thn help to produce electricity in turn helps in charging of battery.

    As much fast we move that much speedly our battery will get charged and there will b no end of our journey wherever we want to go no matter how much distanc.

  175. Dan says:

    I had the exact same idea (multiple fans acting as windmills attached to your car). I thought maybe you could generate enough electricity to extend the battery life a little giving you a few extra miles before needing to recharge.

  176. Tom says:

    I’ve read all items on this post and I agree that drag can cause an issue. As for the deployed RAT or Ram Air Turbine used as an emergency hydraulic/electric generator in aircraft it will not work for the purpose in a car due to the speed or airflow required to rotate it. Plus consider the energy required to stow this RAT after deployment…exsessive. The horizontal turbine using blade style or centrifigal style turbines will not add a significant amount of drag, similar to the radiator opening at the front of the vehicle. Provided you already have an electric/hybrid vehicle or an electric conversion vehicle and you incorperate PV panels on the body and gear enhanced wind generators in the front used as a redundant charging system for additional battery packs one could extend the range of a current EV to at least double the current range or more. As for the haters in this post I agree with some of the facts you have presented but unless you have personally put forth a hands on effort into finding a new way or being productive to finding a solution then you have no substance to your opinions or any of the facts you have learned by reading a book or just personally agree with. As a whole I have made generators both AC and DC and a DC generator does provide an increased drag based on the load it has. An AC generator depending on how it was designed can have a much smaller drag based on the load and can then be rectified to charge batteries. AC generators are also smaller and lighter but produce less voltage at a higher rotation. But what if we add deflection or wastegate doors to control the airflow hence the rotational speed of the turbines. :) Plus if we add 2 stacked centrifigal turbines counter rotating each other the centripical force is canceled and we have eliminated the nasty torque twist that will occur and also reduce vibration by utilizing this counter force through natural balancing harmonics. These parts are already availible (turbochargers) Though those for automobiles are too small in circumfrence, the ones for aviation engines such as the PT-6 engine is of nominal size and capible of handling 50000 rpm (Yes fifty thousand) Also the mass torque effect of these turbines due to the rotational weight will rotate the generators for a few minutes after a complete stop until the drag load and friction stops them. I am not talking about a “Free energy) machine, only a way to extend the range of current EV’s, hybrids, and EV conversions. The thime to recharge would be less also due to the multiple battery packs. Example: for freeway driving your primary power would come frome the turbines and any excess (if any) would charge pack 1. Pack 2 would be charged via the PV panels (use as an emergency or extended range only). And Pack 3 would be the standard vehicle pack that came with the EV (charged by a standard elecrical plug in or by the other 2 methods using a controller for optimum charging. I have a small electric dune buggy that I have placed a standard blower fan from an HVAC furnace in the front running a homemade 3 rotor 3 phase AC generator, then through a rectifier pack and into a controller that also controls the 2 PV panels on the roof of the buggy. Each of these have there own battery pack. The PV’s charge 4 Sunpro 109kw/h batts. The homemade windmill charges 4 of the same batts and the primary pack is 4 additional Sunpro batts at 109kw/h all are 12vDC wired in series for 48VDC. The motor is an old Forklift pump motor out of an electric forklift that is 20A @ 48vDC totalling 960watts. Top speed is 60+ and I can use it around my farm all day and my kids us it to goof off in up and down the trails all day without me ever charging it by plugging it in. the knowlege I used to build it came from youtube for elec car conversions and trying to figure out a way to go completey off grid from the power company…still working on that. :) Any questions I can be reached a tjnowlin2@yahoo to get back to you.

    Tom
    Learning from other’s is only learning one way. Learning for yourself is progress.

    1. CXR says:

      Tom,
      Just read your blog of 9 5 12 . Impressive !!!!! I have been toying with these exact ideas for approx 6 months. I have begun building just recently. The squirrel cage idea I came up with and was talked out of. I then moved on to an old USAF wind turbine used in WW2 on Piper Cubs. I purchased one. NOS. Ran some tests and found it to be very feasible. I have since moved on to another idea and am testing it. More promising and productive. Never thought of “cancelling” the torque !! Sikorski helicopter. Great idea !!!
      I feel the weight will be the key for longer production.
      Not too much into PV’s yet you have proven they are a usable force. Does the dune buggy run a transmission or transaxle or is it a direct drive from the forklift motor to a differential? 60+ Is this 60mph ? You can soar over dunes at that speed
      Glad you pointed out “proof” There are a lot of talkers out there.
      I will send you an email. Please respond when you have time.
      Thanks,
      CXR

  177. krishna chaithnya says:

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  178. Venkat says:

    Is there any problem to setup the wind turbine infrontof the bonnet for power gaining..and is thr any problem in set up

  179. otuaga says:

    Maybe you can help me with my situation. I want to install a 1kw wind turbine solely for the purpose of running a 90hp DC motor, my main problem is that they both each require different types of controllers. How can I wire the wind turbine through its controller to charge the batteries and at the same time wire the motor through its controller to draw power from the same battery bank?

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  183. David Ellsworth says:

    What about using wind tunnels, per say on the side doors running from the headlight to the rear (to minimize friction) to recharge the electric battery?

  184. athul says:

    why not put multiple small wind turbines bigger than a golf ball but small than football in the bumper in the front in small holes. to reduce the drag at lower speeds small doors or covering can be installed ,which can be opened when the required speed is reached. this design is also more drag efficient there not many large propellers which increase the drag

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