Alan Martin reports from last night’s virtual world event – “On January 18, 2006, Stanford Law Professor Lawrence Lessig, known for his work on Creative Commons and intellectual property rights in general, joined Lindens and residents alike in the world of Second Life for a discussion on what turned out to be a very wide range of topics. Professor Lessig talked about the future of SL, and how we must be careful not to take the path of overly restrictive IP rights. He even offered to consult with Linden Lab in the future on these matters, and said he would look into getting some members of congress to speak in SL as well. The event proceeded into a long string of questions from the audience, during which many interesting topics were brought up, many relating to SL and RL IP rights (and what distinction we can make between the two). Finally, the event ended with a Free Culture book signing featuring lines of patient residents waiting to get their autographed copies from virtual Lessig himself.”
Photo from New world notes….
–Saved from Borrowdale Auditorium on Wednesday, January 18, 2006–
Philip Linden: Shortly thereafter we gave IP rights to creators,
Philip Linden: Shortly thereafter we gave IP rights to creators,
Lawrence Lessig: bravo
Philip Linden: and switched to our system of land ownership
Philip Linden: clearly, looking at the last 2 years,
Zuru Cult: cool
Philip Linden: this was the right call.
Lawrence Lessig: as every free society has discvered
Philip Linden: Yes!
Philip Linden: We have realized, more and more over time,
Philip Linden: how much SL is a developing nation,
Philip Linden: and how, it we want to succeed,
Philip Linden: One thing that I have often said about SL,
Philip Linden: is that it is a kind of time machine
Philip Linden: or businesses rise and then decline
Zuru Cult: sorry
Philip Linden: we must make the choices which fastest and best advance us all
Philip Linden: we must make the choices which fastest and best advance us all
Philip Linden: in a fraction of ‘real world’ time
Philip Linden: What I was struck by in reading Free Culture
Philip Linden: these sorts of choices are at the heart of Lawrence’s work.
Philip Linden: is how important this idea on time becomes!
Philip Linden: a place where innovation is rewarded,
Philip Linden: we are going in exactly the opposite direction.
Philip Linden: or perhaps ideas fail,
Philip Linden: Slowing progress in the real world.
Zuru Cult: http://www.law.berkeley.edu/journals/btlj/journal/ed11-1.htm
Philip Linden: In the same way we can hopefully speed it here.
Philip Linden: In the beginning of Free Culture,
Philip Linden: you tell the story of air rights…
Philip Linden: By extending copyrights,
Philip Linden: of how overflying property is a public good.
Lawrence Lessig: yes a problem you’ve dealt with
Philip Linden: of how overflying property is a public good.
Lawrence Lessig: yes a problem you’ve dealt with
Philip Linden: This is SO relevant and topical in SL.
Philip Linden: This is SO relevant and topical in SL.
Philip Linden: Something we’ve all struggled with…
Philip Linden: Something we’ve all struggled with…
Philip Linden: how to balance freedom and ownership with progress and benefit for all.
Philip Linden: how to balance freedom and ownership with progress and benefit for all.
Philip Linden: I wanted to ask you a question,
Philip Linden: I wanted to ask you a question,
Philip Linden: that I think folks in SL will really relate to,
Philip Linden: that I think folks in SL will really relate to,
Philip Linden: I interviewed a person for a job at LL the other day
Philip Linden: I interviewed a person for a job at LL the other day
Philip Linden: and she was telling me how one of her dreams for using SL
Philip Linden: and she was telling me how one of her dreams for using SL
Philip Linden: was to build the sets of movies…
Philip Linden: was to build the sets of movies…
Philip Linden: was to build the sets of movies…
Philip Linden: was to build the sets of movies…
Philip Linden: and is an example of where we are at the edge of the envelope
Philip Linden: and is an example of where we are at the edge of the envelope
Philip Linden: and allow people to act out the endings in a different way…
Philip Linden: and allow people to act out the endings in a different way…
Philip Linden: to be a part of the movie.
Philip Linden: to be a part of the movie.
Philip Linden: But then, of course,
Philip Linden: But then, of course,
Philip Linden: she paused…
Philip Linden: she paused…
Philip Linden: and said.. “oh., but wouldn’t that be illegal”
Philip Linden: and said.. “oh., but wouldn’t that be illegal”
Philip Linden: I think she really didn’t know.
Philip Linden: I think she really didn’t know.
Philip Linden: I think I don’t really know.
Philip Linden: I think I don’t really know.
Philip Linden: And that is what your book is all about.
Philip Linden: And that is what your book is all about.
Philip Linden: I don’t think that exactly motivated her to go in there and start working on ‘finding Nemo’
Philip Linden: I don’t think that exactly motivated her to go in there and start working on ‘finding Nemo’
Rob Bukowski: I think that conversation actually never happened and was a way to get to the question lol
Philip Linden: What do you think would happen to her if she did?
Philip Linden: What do you think would happen to her if she did?
Lawrence Lessig: So 2nd life is prominent
Lawrence Lessig: So 2nd life is prominent
Lawrence Lessig: it would get shut down
Lawrence Lessig: it would get shut down
Lawrence Lessig: it is a totally simple applicaiton of existing law
Lawrence Lessig: you’re publishing a derivative of the movie
Lawrence Lessig: you need permission from the movie owner.
Lawrence Lessig: but what the lawyers don’t think about
Lawrence Lessig: is how much of ordinary life they’re rendering illegal
Lawrence Lessig: by this way of thinking
Lawrence Lessig: because as life moves online
Lawrence Lessig: we should have the SAME FREEDOMS (at least)
Lawrence Lessig: that we had in real life
Lawrence Lessig: there’s no doub that in real life
Lawrence Lessig: you could act out a movie
Lawrence Lessig: or a different ending to a movie
Lawrence Lessig: there’s no doubt that would have been “free” of copyright in real live
Lawrence Lessig: life
Lawrence Lessig: but as we move online
Lawrence Lessig: things that were before were free
Lawrence Lessig: now are regulated.
Lawrence Lessig: that’s why people here are so important to this debate
Lawrence Lessig: you have got to make the (clueless) politicians aware
Lawrence Lessig: of what 19th century law is doing to the 21st century
Lawrence Lessig: they don’t get it
Lawrence Lessig: they think they’re stopping “pirates” when they stop all sorts of creativity.
Philip Linden: Given how fast things change in SL
Philip Linden: how long would you make copyrights and patents hold?
Lawrence Lessig: great question
Lawrence Lessig: no idea.
Lawrence Lessig: the issue is how long do they need to be
Lawrence Lessig: create and then can exploit that creativity
Lawrence Lessig: i like the idea that people here
Lawrence Lessig: to give the kind of incentive they’re needed to give
Lawrence Lessig: out of world too
Lawrence Lessig: and one complicatoin you might have is that in world
Lawrence Lessig: if copyrights are different from out of world
Philip Linden: right
Lawrence Lessig: then you’ll have something protected in real space
Lawrence Lessig: not protected in world.
Lawrence Lessig: but maybe that’s fine.
Lawrence Lessig: i don’t know enough to say how things should be here.
Lawrence Lessig: but I do have a sense of the questions you should ask
Philip Linden: I agree that one key question is the duration of value of a work
Philip Linden: perhaps this is something we will be able to see statistically,
Philip Linden: given that our world here is so transparent
Philip Linden: and better inform the debate.
Calix Metropolitan: transpearent?
Philip Linden: Well, I probably can’t think of questions as good as those from all of you.
Philip Linden: And, in true SL style,
Urizenus Sklar: I agree with that
Philip Linden: I am currently sitting in a restaurant in austin texas
Rob Bukowski: lol
Lawrence Lessig: now I’m really hungry
Roguecrx Akula: lol
Philip Linden: with some folks from MIT and a leading Ad Creative agency watching over my shoulder.
Sichel Seifert: lol
Philip Linden: Well the food isn’t here just yet!
Quantum Waves: drooling?
Lawrence Lessig: that doesn’t help
Lawrence Lessig: totally
Philip Linden: Hamlet let’s take some questions and talk.
Lawrence Lessig: one point thought
Lawrence Lessig: re duration
Lawrence Lessig: it might be fun to experiment
Hamlet Linden: Actually I had one related to Code, and then we’ll turn to the audience…
Lawrence Lessig: different terms, and see how that matters to growth, or creativity.
Lawrence Lessig: but ok
Lawrence Lessig: code
Hamlet Linden: Let’s talk a little about that section of *Code* you’re rewriting for the revision, that deals with virtual worlds.
Lawrence Lessig: shoot
Philip Linden: Yes it’s a good point.
Hamlet Linden: In it, you describe an online world where two neighbors resolve a property dispute by changing the very code of the objects they own– in this case, virtual poisonous flowers and a virtual dog.
Philip Linden: Let an answer evolve.
Hamlet Linden: The solution is for the one with the poison flowers to re-code them so they don’t kill the other neighbor’s dog.
Hamlet Linden: You describe this as a positive outcome for both parties, but can you see how it might also be a socially negative outcome, too?
Hamlet Linden: Instead of trying to find a compromise that doesn’t break the shared reality of their world, they alter it in a way that threatens to break the illusion.
Lawrence Lessig: that’s a great point
Lawrence Lessig: and in fact I interviewed this guy to my left
Lawrence Lessig: last week
Hamlet Linden: heh
Lawrence Lessig: and was trying to get the same idea
Lawrence Lessig: when does it make sense to code a solution
Lawrence Lessig: and when does it make sense for people to work it out.
Lawrence Lessig: i like to think about different “modalities of regulation”
Lawrence Lessig: (that’s the way a professor needs to talk)
Lawrence Lessig: one is code
Lawrence Lessig: one is la
Lawrence Lessig: law
Lawrence Lessig: one is norms
Lawrence Lessig: and one is markets.
Lawrence Lessig: and the hard question for me is when does a designer decide — dont’ code a solution. let them work it out themselves.
Lawrence Lessig: not becauser it is hard to code
Lawrence Lessig: maybe it’s totally simple
Lawrence Lessig: but because people should work it out, not have it solved.
Hamlet Linden: Great. OK, let me start going through the audience questions…
Philip Linden: It has been a hard problem for us – when to code.
Philip Linden: Probably we code too much, in restrospect.
Eric Linden: ah – the foundations of a society!
Lawrence Lessig: with god sitting in on the conversation
Hamlet Linden: Fist , someone named Neptune Rebel offers greetings from Kevin Werbach, apparently a mutual colleague of yours. He also asks a question about your view of fair use with regard to parody.
Lawrence Lessig: kevin’s a true genius
Lawrence Lessig: i’ve stolen every great idea he had and turned it into a book
Lawrence Lessig: (there are still many I havent written yet)
Neptune Rebel: I’ll make sure to pass that along
Calix Metropolitan: sounds like ip infraction eh?
Philip Linden: Wow cut and paste this and send to Kevin!
Philip Linden: Wow cut and paste this and send to Kevin!
Lawrence Lessig: sosueme
Hamlet Linden: heh
Hamlet Linden: Sandy Sullivan asks…
Hamlet Linden: what do you think about a society where some people choose to release designs for free access and modification, and others choose to release designs with restrictions and protections in place? Each creator freely choosing?
Katt Kongo: is there a lawyer in the house?
Lawrence Lessig: i like that society.
Lawrence Lessig: i think we need a place were creators choose.
Lawrence Lessig: i have my bias about the right choice
Lawrence Lessig: but i don’t know squat about how creators create, especially here.
Lawrence Lessig: so let people decide,
Lawrence Lessig: and we’ll see whose works spread best.
Lawrence Lessig: and whose work gets the most attention.
Lawrence Lessig: (sorry I didn’t mean to avoid the parody question)
Lawrence Lessig: (was there more?)
Hamlet Linden: Oh yes, if you can come back to it.
Hamlet Linden: Just your view on far use and parody.
Hamlet Linden: fair
Lawrence Lessig: so copyright law gives you the right to “fair use”
Lawrence Lessig: what is that?
Lawrence Lessig: who knows.
Lawrence Lessig: it is a 4 factor balancing test
Lawrence Lessig: that no one can predict up front.
Lawrence Lessig: meaning fair use == the right to hire a lawyer.
Lawrence Lessig: one supposedly clear example is parody.
Lawrence Lessig: but that doesn’t mean what you think.
Lawrence Lessig: parody is using someone’s work to make fun of them.
Lawrence Lessig: it is not using someone’s work to make fun of someone else.
Lawrence Lessig: so, again, a subtle complex distinction that is useless to 90%of the people who need it.
Lawrence Lessig: the whole problem here is the law was written to make sure we’d need lawyers to interpret it
Lawrence Lessig: good for people like me
TonyRockyHorror Hauptmann: JibJab
Lawrence Lessig: (I make lawyers for a living)
Lawrence Lessig: but not for creators.
Hamlet Linden: heh
Philip Linden: This point about how if you don’t really know if something is illegal, you won’t do it,
Philip Linden: is SO important.
Lawrence Lessig: totally
Lawrence Lessig: especially for venture caps
Lawrence Lessig: they won’t invest in a law suit
Philip Linden: Terrible so far beyond simply being job security for lawyers.
Lawrence Lessig: and so much innovation in the valley is law suit bait.
Hamlet Linden: Athel Richelieu asks…
Hamlet Linden: Do you think that the largest American media conglomerates (Viacom, etc.) role in defining culture is superceding religion?
Lawrence Lessig: nay, religion is still pretty damn dangerous.
Lawrence Lessig: but when they control the platform of life
Lawrence Lessig: then they (not LL) will be the gods of this space.
Lawrence Lessig: think about the story from myspace
Lawrence Lessig: owned by murdoch
Lawrence Lessig: when people would chat in myspace about youTube (which is a very very cool video site)
Lawrence Lessig: the machine would block the chats.
Lawrence Lessig: that’s “freedom” in murdoch land.
Hamlet Linden: heh
Hamlet Linden: Justice Soothsayer asks…
Hamlet Linden: As the author of “Code and other laws of cyberspace”, could you speak for a bit about SecondLife, where the world if made for us by the “coders”, that is, the people who create this “world”
Hamlet Linden: What place does democracy and the rule of law have in such a world?
Philip Linden: Funny, I don’t feel free.
Lawrence Lessig: please, tell me. the most interesting thing about the many worlds that are out there is that none really have a vigorous democracy.
Lawrence Lessig: maybe that’s good
Lawrence Lessig: maybe the market is enough of a check
Lawrence Lessig: but it is funny that so few have developed this part of life.
Lawrence Lessig: maybe that’s because we are all so turned off by politics and gov’t and “democracy.”
Lawrence Lessig: it is the one true religious ideal we all have, yet like most religion, we don’t really believe it.
Philip Linden: There is a passion here is SL… to bypass ‘representation’ in the democratic process.
Lawrence Lessig: yea.
Lawrence Lessig: what’s so funny is how much we hate politicians
Lawrence Lessig: and how completely they miss that fact.
Lawrence Lessig: so if you mean
Lawrence Lessig: when something gets created here
Lawrence Lessig: and then gets reproduced in real space.
Lawrence Lessig: is that what yuo mean?
Hamlet Linden: Still out there Csven?
Lawrence Lessig: well, let’s assume that’s the question
Hamlet Linden: Say it out loud, Csven!
Lawrence Lessig: I think it’s fanstastic.
Lawrence Lessig: people separate these worlds too much
Lawrence Lessig: we need good examples about how they’re linked
Philip Linden: I think that drives much of the negative sentiment, appropriately.
Hamlet Linden: Csven Concord asks: What are your thoughts on the interchangeability of tangibility; when real world products are treated the same as current media – digitized, shared online and then fabricated by individuals at home?
Hamlet Linden: Nathan Welch asks…
Hamlet Linden: With new so-called “personal fabrication” devices, most people could produce real products cheaply in their own homes. Plans to build them could be exchanged online. What commons-minded projects would you advocate in this upcoming field?
Lawrence Lessig: complex ones.
Lawrence Lessig: the thing strict IP does poorly is complex work
Lawrence Lessig: coding, e.g., gnu/gpl
Lawrence Lessig: linux
Lawrence Lessig: or building complicated biotech stuff.
Lawrence Lessig: so use the commons for what its good for
Lawrence Lessig: collaboration
Lawrence Lessig: think wikipedia
Lawrence Lessig: (man, it gets dark fast)
Hamlet Linden: heh
Roguecrx Akula: *smiles*
Philip Linden: 4 hour day!
Philip Linden: Everything is faster here.
Hamlet Linden: a QUESTION for professor lessig: what happens when something that person A creates in world free of protection is taken out of world by person B and then uses outdated law to then protect it out game world?
Calix Metropolitan: ctrl-shift-n = force sunshine :)
Hamlet Linden: TonyRockyHorror Hauptmann asks…
Lawrence Lessig: except my typing
Lawrence Lessig: well here’s the point about there not really being two worlds here.
Lawrence Lessig: if I create something
Lawrence Lessig: and then you take it and exploit it
Roguecrx Akula: *whispers* brilliant
Lawrence Lessig: you’re violating my IP (assuming its protectec)
Lawrence Lessig: unless I’ve authorized you to.
Lawrence Lessig: so B would have to exploit it on terms I approve
Lawrence Lessig: or B’s violating my rights.
Hamlet Linden: Forseti Svarog asks…
Hamlet Linden: Lawrence said he had no idea what the term for IP protection should be. Isn’t having a concrete position necessary to get credibility from opponents who think the other side is just about creative theft?
Lawrence Lessig: could be
Lawrence Lessig: but not in the argument we had in eldred.
Lawrence Lessig: the question was whether Congress could EXTEND
Lawrence Lessig: and existing term.
Lawrence Lessig: in eldred
Lawrence Lessig: copyright is about creating incentives
Lawrence Lessig: here’s why that makes no sense.
Lawrence Lessig: no matter what even the US Congress does
Lawrence Lessig: incentives are prospective.
Lawrence Lessig: it will not give Elvis any more incentive to create in 1954
Lawrence Lessig: so whatever the lenght of copyright should be prospectively
Lawrence Lessig: to extend the term for work that is already created.
Lawrence Lessig: we know it can make no sense of incentives
Lawrence Lessig: second point
Lawrence Lessig: i was talking about in world ip
Lawrence Lessig: in real space, I’m fairly confident the term is already way too long
Lawrence Lessig: in the eldred case
Lawrence Lessig: gave a copyright owner
Lawrence Lessig: we argued that the current term
Lawrence Lessig: justice breyer corrected me.
Lawrence Lessig: 99.98% of the valua of a perpetual term.
Lawrence Lessig: he said it was 99.99996% of a perpetual term.
Lawrence Lessig: whatever.
Hamlet Linden: Dear Leader asks…
Lawrence Lessig: too long
Hamlet Linden: Why is it that you want individual creators in SL to have copyright, and celebrate that, but you condemn MySpace for wanting to preserve copyright, or other corporations — isn’t there a contradiction here?
Hamlet Linden: heh
Lawrence Lessig: i condemned a decision by programmers of myspace to interfere with the words of its members. that’s the only criticism.
EZ Rawley: aren’t virtual worlds by definition not fixed tangible forms, which is what IP law covers?
Hamlet Linden: Rob Bukowski: asks…
Lawrence Lessig: no, virtual worlds certainly would create work that is covered by ip.
Lawrence Lessig: fixed and tangible enough
Hamlet Linden: Oh go ahead…
Philip Linden: There must be a balance… time to create value for a person, but still maximize value for a society.
Lawrence Lessig: yes
Lawrence Lessig: that’s the balance
Dear Leader: Isn’t always ascribing social missions to creativity itself a form of oppression, Philip?
Urizenus Sklar: hehe
Hamlet Linden: Do you think legal binding contracts could ever work in a virtual world such as SL?
Hamlet Linden: (Rob Bukowski asks.)
Jeska Linden shouts: Please be sure to send your questions to Hamlet Linden!
Lawrence Lessig: they could
Lawrence Lessig: quesiton is whether you want them
Lawrence Lessig: this is the same question about whether you want code or norms to regulate behavior.
Lawrence Lessig: if you coded contracts here, so they forced things to happen the way promised, that would be very efficient for somethings
Lawrence Lessig: but itmight ruin other things.
——————————————
Hamlet Linden: Dana Bergson asks… Philip was talking about how he wants to further the fast development of SL by giving sensible IP rights to residents while RL Copyrights strangle growth in RL. But how would it possible to decouple IP in SL and RL?
Hamlet Linden: Both are heavily intertwined. This is no country with its own laws.
Lawrence Lessig: you could have rules for how stuff created here gets used here
Lawrence Lessig: sure
Lawrence Lessig: you could even have rules that controlled how people’s ip
Lawrence Lessig: created here
Lawrence Lessig: would be governed in real space
Lawrence Lessig: that’s totally possible.
Philip Linden: And perhaps common law would help us there…
Lawrence Lessig: what freedoms members of this community have, at least when here.
Hamlet Linden: Daniel Terdiman from CNET is in the office here at LL and he has a question. I wonder if he’s familiar with Marvel v. NCSoft and if so, what he thinks of the idea of restricting the kinds of characters players can create.
Lawrence Lessig: and in principle,
Lawrence Lessig: i know the case
Calix Metropolitan: The problem is that people here make money, that is able to be traded via market exchange to any currency, so the line gets more narrow and the rules governing DCMA and IP would too once income is earned does it not?
Lawrence Lessig: the characters that are part of their life
Lawrence Lessig: and yes
Lawrence Lessig: it is bad we don’t know the settlement
Lawrence Lessig: but the settlement wouldn’t controlthe law.
Lawrence Lessig: we need some good common law cases to describe the freedom here
Philip Linden: a few decisions recognizing that things were logically distinct,
Lawrence Lessig: so others can build on it.
Lawrence Lessig: on my blog http://lessig.org/blog
Philip Linden: or different here than in RL.
Lawrence Lessig: there’s a fantastic link to a .mov
Hamlet Linden: And also, how much of a chill on free content creation is it to have a settlement between those parties that doesn’t reveal what the terms are?
Lawrence Lessig: it is a perfect example of the insanity of these laws.
Lawrence Lessig: people ought to be able to create
Satchmo Prototype: Dan needs to read Robins blog :)
Philip Linden: I LOVED that video on your site Lawrence.
Urizenus Sklar: good Q, Dan
Lawrence Lessig: the idea that Marvel owns these characters in every use they might have
Lawrence Lessig: about characters being quashed in world
Lawrence Lessig: is wrong. IT is just this kind of limit that we need the law to craft.
Lawrence Lessig: by real space lawyers.
Hamlet Linden: Philip needs to roll from the restaurant so I wanted to give him time to say a few words before he exits…
Lawrence Lessig: very funny.
Philip Linden: The movie really wraps it all up.
Hamlet Linden: (And I’ll continue on.)
Philip Linden: Well…
Philip Linden: there is so much to talk about.
Philip Linden: But the waitress is hovering near our strange little table.
Philip Linden: And the wi-fi goes not much past the door, I assume.
Philip Linden: I really hope
Philip Linden: that as SL grows,
Philip Linden: we are able to get more time with Lawrence to help us thing through all these opportunities.
TonyRockyHorror Hauptmann: here, here!
Philip Linden: I hope to be able to trade strange stories of this new world
Philip Linden: for a bit of his time.
Lawrence Lessig: i would really love that
Philip Linden: We have a chance,
Lawrence Lessig: finally to work on problems
Lawrence Lessig: where we could make some progress
Philip Linden: if we make the right decisions.
Philip Linden: to be a place that really matters and moves forward fast.
Philip Linden: Thanks so much for having me here.
Philip Linden: And please continue on!
Hamlet Linden: Thanks for coming, Philip. Safe trip back to SF!
Philip Linden: Take care everyone!
VonKorf Schnook: /clap
Hamlet Linden: And so, back to the audience questions…
EZ Rawley: great session!
Hamlet Linden: Ty Magpie asks…
Urizenus Sklar: I thought he would never leave!
Hamlet Linden: what about duplication of corporate logos in builds that attempt to reconstruct real life places, like RL convenience stores with Pepsi and Coors ads everywhere… could they sue over such someday?
Coffee Linden: Please direct your questions to Hamlet Linden by IM. :)
Lawrence Lessig: first the link to the movie: http://www.lessig.org/blog/archives/cease-and-desist_640.mov
Lawrence Lessig: re logos
Lawrence Lessig: they could complain it it was unclear who was responsible for the stuff.
Lawrence Lessig: so if you start producing Coke and call it Coke, I’m sure they wouldn’t be happy.
Hamlet Linden: Calix Metropolitan asks…
Hamlet Linden: SecondLife states in TOS that they abide by DMCA and offer a way to dispute, IP infractions. The problem is IP infractions can vary and are very hard to prove as code, building and the tools used to make objects is basically the same format.
Hamlet Linden: Is there a copyright similar to a Founders Copyright (creative commons oversees this) or something akin to protect scripts that are original in nature and use.
Hamlet Linden: Also what about NDA agreements in SL vs RL and subcontracting to members using SL money (which can equate to any currency through Lindex trade)?
Lawrence Lessig: so in principle
Lawrence Lessig: a copyright is only violated if you
Lawrence Lessig: copy someone elses work.
Lawrence Lessig: that makes proof very difficulyt
Lawrence Lessig: because if there are just a few ways to do something
Lawrence Lessig: there’s a complicated question about whether it can be copyrighted
Lawrence Lessig: and then a hard question to know whether the defendant really did even see the original
Lawrence Lessig: that he is alleged to have copied.
Lawrence Lessig: I do know that on democracy island (I believe) they were demo-ing
Lawrence Lessig: a creative commons tool.
Lawrence Lessig: very cool implementation
Lawrence Lessig: but we don’t have a sl founders copyright.
Hamlet Linden: Oh yes, be sure to check out Zarf’s CC machine.
Lawrence Lessig: re agreements: depends on what it says.
Lawrence Lessig: but again,
Lawrence Lessig: don’t assume they are completely separate worlds.
Calix Metropolitan: It is a 14 yr copyright with less protections than LOC 70 yrs
Lawrence Lessig: it is, and i’d love to build it here. but we’ve not yet done that. volunteers?
Hamlet Linden: heh
Hamlet Linden: Don’t everyone jump in at once!
Hamlet Linden: OK…
Hamlet Linden: jesz Murakami asks…
Calix Metropolitan: yes actually
Hamlet Linden: when u (lawrence) talk of warriors –do u see them as pawns in a deeper war –where the creative children of this species may make a healthy species –that the status quo of this is truly feared of?
EZ Rawley: sure, if you don’t have to be a lawyer to participate..
Calix Metropolitan: would love to create that and nda form and contracts ppl can use with goods
Calix Metropolitan: as a simple law student i can’t give legal advice as that is against the law ;p
Lawrence Lessig: the status quo is afraid
Lawrence Lessig: but I don’t think they understand what they are afraid of
Lawrence Lessig: they’ve got quarterly earnings
Lawrence Lessig: and no tenure
Lawrence Lessig: and new technologies they don’t know how to monetize
Lawrence Lessig: so they do what everyone threatened does
Lawrence Lessig: they attack.
Lawrence Lessig: that’s why I think it is best to build the alternative without destroying what they’re doing
Lawrence Lessig: and then let people understand its values.
Lawrence Lessig: re building CC here.
Lawrence Lessig: you know, we have a program to port licenses into different jurisdictions
Lawrence Lessig: maybe we should add 2d life to that list
Lawrence Lessig: there are 70 countries now in the process of doing that
Lawrence Lessig: why not a vitual jurisdiction?
Hamlet Linden: Khalid Xingjian asks…
Hamlet Linden: Is boycotting Yahoo! properties an appropriate response to its handling of the Shi Tao case? If so, how can it be made effective? People on Flickr (for example) are more upset about the UAE blocking flickr than its parent company’s Shi Tao role.
Calix Metropolitan: it doesnt even have to be cc per se, i mean any sanction equivelant would seem to work as cc uses a thinktank mostly and a few bits of legal jargon and a logo?
Lawrence Lessig: the yahoo issue is hard. msft, and yahoo are big; they’re not the chinese gov’t. so
Lawrence Lessig: how they decide how to llive there is a complicated question. I don’t think a company on its own can choose
Lawrence Lessig: to ignore the law.
Lawrence Lessig: so either leave or obey the law — or get the US gov’t to back them up for defending rights that ought to be defended.
Hamlet Linden: OK, one more question and we should go to the autograph session since that’ll probably take awhile. Get into position, Falk, to give us covering fire if need be…
Hamlet Linden: OK, last question…
Hamlet Linden: Dagny Hemingway asks…
Falk Bergman: will do
Hamlet Linden: Has creative commons been tested yet in a court of law and if not, what do you suppose the issues will be when it happens?
Lawrence Lessig: has not
Lawrence Lessig: it
Lawrence Lessig: but there’s nothing really creative or novel in the cc licenses
Lawrence Lessig: they are just copyright licenses
Lawrence Lessig: following the teaching of the Free Software Foundation.
Lawrence Lessig: if someone violates the license, they violate the underlying copyright.
Lawrence Lessig: so just as any software or content licenses protects the copyirght owner
Lawrence Lessig: cc licenses do as well.
Lawrence Lessig: big difference though
Lawrence Lessig: is that cc licenses grant freedoms that wouldn’t otherwise be there
Lawrence Lessig: while ordinary copyright licenses
Lawrence Lessig: impose restrictions.
Calix Metropolitan: the founders copyright is different, under their fold is more in line with ip protection etc
Lawrence Lessig: so no test yet
Lawrence Lessig: but I’m not worried when one happens.
Hamlet Linden: OK, last question from *me* (excerisizing host rights)…
Hamlet Linden: You suggest some specific solutions to improve the current copyright regime, but are somewhat general about how the voting public might come to support them.
Hamlet Linden: What’s the best way of convincing average voters that this is important enough for them to call their Congress person?
Lawrence Lessig: the key is for people to see the creativity these spaces invite.
Lawrence Lessig: they need to see the stuff their kids do (other than downloading every song ever recorded)
Lawrence Lessig: and then they need to see how the law treats that kind of creativity.
Lawrence Lessig: my favorite recent example is Anime music videos.
Lawrence Lessig: they are extraordinarily creative
Lawrence Lessig: amazing stuff
Lawrence Lessig: totally illegal under the law as it is.
Lawrence Lessig: people have to see the creativity and
Lawrence Lessig: then ask — why is thisillegal.
Lawrence Lessig: and when they ask that question, some at least will ask it of
Lawrence Lessig: a congressperson.
Lawrence Lessig: we should get some congresspeople in this space.
Lawrence Lessig: I could get a couple if you want.
Hamlet Linden: Absolutely!
Lawrence Lessig: I also think Judge Posner should come here.
Hamlet Linden: In a heartbeat!
Chase Speculaas: ummm… we might want to hide the porn first…
Lawrence Lessig: that would help lots — for people to understand by seeing.
Ares Desmoulins: 0.o
TonyRockyHorror Hauptmann: so, the spread of knowledge and creativity is the emancipation of knowledge and creativity.
Hamlet Linden: Why not Justice Scalia too while we’re at it? :)
EZ Rawley: or congressional staffers, as a beginning..
Lawrence Lessig: he and I don’t talk much anymore…
Hamlet Linden: heh
Calix Metropolitan: Does the Monocale have wi-fi yet?
Calix Metropolitan: Maybe Bullfeathers?
Hamlet Linden: OK, let me give the floor to Jeska for organizing the autograph session.
Lawrence Lessig: when it was rehnquist, it was the monacale
Hamlet Linden: Sorry we couldn’t get to all the answers but autographs are anotherepic drama oftimes.
Calix Metropolitan: Heh and Sen. Dominici too with his Gilby’s Vodka
Jeska Linden shouts: Hey everyone! Ok, we’re going to do the book signing now.
Jeska Linden shouts: Here’s how it’s going to work.
Jeska Linden: Everyone interested in getting their book signed please stay seated and I’m going to call up each row and section, starting with those in the Pooley region directly in front of me.
Jeska Linden: I’ll call up each row, starting with the row closest to the stage. When your row is called, just line up next to me.
Urizenus Sklar: woot
Jeska Linden: Then one at a time you’ll be able to rez your book and have Lawrence sign it.
Jeska Linden shouts: Thanks in advance for your patience!
–End of Transcript–
Eric Rice (Spin Martin in world) has some footage.
New World notes reports – Zarf Vantongerloo debuted a Creative Commons license generator for Residents who want to affix those standards to their in-world creations.
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